Or are compulsory vaccines the best political policy the Tories have ever come up with?

[HollyGoLoudly1]

In the news today, Tory health secretary is investigating compulsory vaccinations for school children.

Before I don my hard hat, for background I have a close family member who is immunocompromised. He has had multiple hospital admissions over the years for simple viruses and other illnesses that most of us wouldn't even need to stay off work for. If he catches something like measles it could be fatal.

To be honest, even disregarding this family member, I am very, very pro-vaccine and would support this policy no matter what. Even if it is from the Tories (who I definitely do not support).

puts on hard hat

Because of the control aspect. What's next?

We already have a "control aspect" when it comes to children though so I don't really get the slippery slope type arguments. Parents aren't considered to effectively "own" their children. They can't just do whatever they want without state intervention anyway.

I am completely against it and almost any other policy which would give the state parental powers except in the most extreme circumstances and usually in such cases the courts would consider whether awarding the state such rights is appropriate and justified.

Consider that even in cases regarding disputes over medical treatment the courts are consulted before doctors can supersede parental decisions. Whether parental authority can be taken away is judged on an individual case by case basis Yet here we are proposing parents be effectively judged as neglectful and found in breach of the law over getting their child vaccinated. It is overstepping the mark in my opinion.

I also think whether someone has to consider anything beyond their own child's welfare in terms of 'herd immunity' is debatable and not necessarily straight right or wrong.

This seems so untory a proposition to me. Usually they are all for smaller state and individual freedom. But then this new politics we have emerging frightens me on many levels.

I value liberty. I would definitely not support any government over a policy like this.

That is anecedotal evidence. You can't extrapolate what you heard on two occasions to what is happening to everyone in the entire country. Your DS probably asked someone who is part of the group campaigning to increase vaccination among young adults who have been denied it by their parents and as they are so young it is understandable that they know little about it. Who did the young mum at the baby group ask the question to. A healthcare professional. If so then they should have given a better response but you can't decide that everyone else is getting the same response.

She asked a Health Visitor.

And yes it is anecdotal, but 6 down I've seen that the attitudes of HV's here, and from what I've discussed with friends and the likes - and seen on Mumsnet - hasn't changed since I was a nervous parent unsure about vaccinations.

DS asked specifically because he wanted to know the difference (vaccinations are a big talking point in our house atm for various reasons) in how people got spoken too.

Education works. Calling people silly or stupid and patronising doesn't. If that did work vaccination rates wouldn't be so low...

Perhaps if she became very ill but only if they could prove that I am mentally incompetent. The point is that in other countries, you'd be forced into preventative treatment.

I have a problem with punishing people (children) for making choices that are theirs to make.

Whether the choice is their to make is a matter of opinion and dependent on the situation though isn't it? In this country adults can choose what happens to their own bodies but ultimately their are limits on what they can decide for their children. That's because not every parent is capable or willing to make good choices and their children shouldn't suffer because of their parents inadequacies.

I don't agree with forcing people to vaccinate but I do think limiting school places and possibly doing something with benefits, no taking money away but fully vaccinated children's parents given some sort of bonus. If it was linked to education the maybe a free school uniform at 5 and then again at 11.

I think that would be worse than a blanket rule, because linking to state school and benefits basically makes it only compulsory to poor people.

If it's a serious enough issue that needs mandating from the government then people who can afford it shouldn't be able to get around it, it should apply to all.

@woodchuck99

I think you're wrong about parental control because as a teacher, I've encountered several occasions where a student was refused assessment for an EHCP by their parent. I'm talking kids with obvious ASD or ADHD or some sort of GDD and their parents do not have to consent to it. We have to acknowledge and meet the needs as the school but with no official help or funding.

There was only one case where it was thought serious enough to escalate it legally but that student was neglected and taken into care. The refusal for assessment was part of wider neglect.

I grew up where you couldn't go to state nursery or school without vaccinations unless you were a medical exempt. Parents also had to go through court to not vaccinate if the child was able to be.
I know absolutely NO ONE who had measles, TB, or any of the mandatory vaccinations illnesses.
There is now a case of tetanus. It's major news. This is a third case in just over a decade.

I know someone who is immunocompromised and I am all up for mandatory vaccines. It's horrifying for me to see the rise of these illnesses.

When I first came to UK and read in news about measles outbreaks, i couldn't believe it. Honestly couldn't believe that parents are willingly putting their and other's children at risk just like that🤷

She asked a Health Visitor.

As I said she should be able to provide better information but you can't extrapolate that to the education that everyone receives. I doubt very much that the person asking the question hadn't previously received any information so it doesn't demonstrate that parents are not being educated.

I am completely against it and almost any other policy which would give the state parental powers except in the most extreme circumstances and usually in such cases the courts would consider whether awarding the state such rights is appropriate and justified.

Agreed. I am against the state forcing medical procedures on anyone - termination, sterilisation, vaccination etc. It should always be a free choice.

I think you have to remember that many of the generation above ours had measles. It was seen as a minor illness. All of my uncles and aunts have had it. My mum has had it. Don't know about my dad. It was like chicken pox.

Whether the choice is their to make is a matter of opinion and dependent on the situation though isn't it? In this country adults can choose what happens to their own bodies but ultimately their are limits on what they can decide for their children. That's because not every parent is capable or willing to make good choices and their children shouldn't suffer because of their parents inadequacies

Parents are responsible for making decisions on behalf of their children unless a court removes that right. If I believe a vaccination might harm my child and don’t want them to have it just to protect other children (I am not saying I don’t care about those other children, but I care about my child more) then I am showing a very great willingness to make what I think are good choices. You might disagree with me, but if it is my child, it isn’t your decision to make absent a court order.

About bloody time.

There was only one case where it was thought serious enough to escalate it legally but that student was neglected and taken into care.

Yes, but my point is that you can escalate it. I appreciate that lack of funds may prevent this when it comes to children being assessed for educational difficulties but that doesn't apply to medical treatment and it does demonstrate that parents don't always get to choose what they think is best for their children.

We already have a "control aspect" when it comes to children though so I don't really get the slippery slope type arguments.

You don't have to 'get it'. It's my personal opinion. Whether you 'get it' isn't really relevant, I still think it.

Parents are responsible for making decisions on behalf of their children unless a court removes that right.

Yes, sometimes a court needs to be involved but not always. You can't decide your child should have a few weeks off school for example as a law is in place to prevent you making that choice if they are not home educated.

@woodchuck99

That was escalated because the girl was thought to be a witch child and had regular exorcism. Not because they wouldn't let her be assessed for SN. You see the difference? The fact they would not let her be assessed was up to them. Exercising your child for being a witch wasn't up to them. Nor was starving her or beating her. Not allowing assessment was just part of a wider case. That alone wouldn't have warranted any escalation whatsoever.

Another utterly ridiculous pointless vote catching policy from the Twatty Tories looking for votes from the gullible.

Any parent who doesn't want to have their children vaccinated for whatever reason will simply homeschool them or send them to a private school that will no doubt have charitable status. (!)

What will you do to ensure that all the children yours come into contact with when attending swimming class/karate/football/brownies/scouts, playing at the park, in the playground, on holidays, etc. are vaccinated too?

You don't have to 'get it'. It's my personal opinion. Whether you 'get it' isn't really relevant, I still think it.

Not much point in discussing it then really is there?

Another utterly ridiculous pointless vote catching policy from the Twatty Tories looking for votes from the gullible.

It already happens in many countries and works though so not really ridiculous as an idea in itself. The "ridiculous" part is thinking it a Tories idea in the first place and that anyone who thinks it will work is gullible even if they have already lived somewhere where vaccination is compulsory.

As I said she should be able to provide better information but you can't extrapolate that to the education that everyone receives. I doubt very much that the person asking the question hadn't previously received any information so it doesn't demonstrate that parents are not being educated.

It doesn't matter what education she already had, she had a concern about something (that family were putting pressure on her about - and that happens a LOT in vax issues in my experience) and one of the medical professionals who she should be able to get good quality, non patronising information from basically called her silly. That is something that happens a lot in my experience and it doesn't help the situation at all.

Treating people like they are idiots, which is what frequently happens - you only have to look at vax threads on here to see that that's not just something that happens where I live - just gets their back up, makes them less likely to ask more questions and doesn't help the situation at all.

Telling people to just do it isn't working.

I totally disagree. It's a parent's choice. All this will do is criminalise parents who object. Also, why do parents get to opt out for religious reasons? Why does that Trump a parent who isn't religious?

It doesn't matter what education she already had, she had a concern about something (that family were putting pressure on her about - and that happens a LOT in vax issues in my experience) and one of the medical professionals who she should be able to get good quality, non patronising information from basically called her silly. That is something that happens a lot in my experience and it doesn't help the situation at all.

I have said twice that she should have been given better advice by the health visitor when she asked the question.

I have said twice that she should have been given better advice by the health visitor when she asked the question.hmm

Yes, focus on the bit you can be patronising about and ignore the bit about how that happens a lot and is a huge part of the issue (despite you making out it only happens where I live).

Is it a 'vote catching' policy though? It was predominantly middle class parents with the resources and education who were said to notice a 'link' between their child developing Autism and the MMR jab, which kick started the whole thing. And again predominant MC parents who have money to get the jabs done separately privately. All those I know to have actively refused and feel confident in their understanding of the risk fall into the affluent bracket that would usually vote tory.

So which demographic are they targeting?