Or are compulsory vaccines the best political policy the Tories have ever come up with?

[HollyGoLoudly1]

In the news today, Tory health secretary is investigating compulsory vaccinations for school children.

Before I don my hard hat, for background I have a close family member who is immunocompromised. He has had multiple hospital admissions over the years for simple viruses and other illnesses that most of us wouldn't even need to stay off work for. If he catches something like measles it could be fatal.

To be honest, even disregarding this family member, I am very, very pro-vaccine and would support this policy no matter what. Even if it is from the Tories (who I definitely do not support).

puts on hard hat

I only voted YABU because you said “no matter what”

That’s too open ended for me. I would not support a policy that excluded kids that cannot be vaccinated e.g. due to immune system compromise, allergies, or needle phobia.

I think I’d also not support a policy that made every available vaccine under the sun mandatory, but rather only vaccines against communicable diseases through normal school day contact. Like, the HPV vaccine for example as that is an STD so should not be required to merely attend school.

@meditrina
Why are you opposed to school but not to benefits?

Vaccines are not risk free for those with certain genetic constitutions

I would extrapolate and say that I accept that vaccines are not risk free for anyone. There is a risk with any medication or vaccine. Those who are at high risk of vaccine damage could be protected by herd immunity, but only if uptake rates increase.

Love what a PP said: If you don't want to contribute to herd immunity, you don't get to be part of the herd.

I would rather have a vaccine damaged child then a dead child. Any parent who fails to immunise their children are negligent.

Mandatory vaccination makes me extremely uneasy.

Me too. I want every vaccine going for my child but not vaccinating your child doesn’t guarantee them harm, where not feeding them would and would right justify the state protecting a child from their parents, so I can’t agree that the state has a right to stick needles into anyone without the agreement of their parents.

The thing is I think if something isn't done, then when there are more measles outbreaks and other diseases come back, then there will be more people who have no choice because their children are immune compromised so they will have to home educate or keep their child off if there is an outbreak. So someone's 'parental choice not to vaccinate' is taking someone elses choice to be educated in a safe environment

They could always set up a system where children have to register with school whether they are vaccinated or not. And for the reportable diseases like measles if there is an outbreak in that county or neighbouring county then those unvaccinated children are not allowed in til the outbreak has passed

This isnt about vaccines it’s about state control of individuals- the first step towards totalitarianism.

The problem being that those with tje genetic make ups that necessitate them being susceptible to vaccine damage aren't generally aware of this until after the fact.
That is unless the parents are known carriers of for exampke the mthfr mutation and seek to have their children tested before the vaccination schedule begins.

I am totally pro vaccine however I would not support this. Bodily autonomy is key too. Education is the way forward on this, not in terms of just telling people that vaccines are a good idea but teaching people how to evaluate and come to a conclusion on information they see on the internet. This is something which should be taught more.

@DoctorAllcome

Ah, I've not been clear there. I didn't mean 'no matter what the actual details of the policy are'. I meant I would support it no matter if I didn't have an immunocompromised family member or that the Tories are the ones bringing it forward. I definitely would not support excluding children who can't have vaccines, or making every vaccine under the sun compulsory. I just mean the general idea of compulsory vaccinations.

100+ children in this country have Narcolepsy after the swine flu vaccine. Parents have lost jobs & businesses. There is no safety net whatever for the very small minority that do react. All medical procedures come with risk - however tiny.
Not anti-vax - all family fully vaccinated.

the unvaccinated should be ineligible to access public funded schools or healthcare.

No healthcare? You realize this means you are happy to watch babies and children die by withholding medical care from them? You also understand that many refugees are not fully vaccinated and you would be denying them lifesaving medical care too. And these are innocents. They don’t deserve to be condemned to death through deliberate medical neglect.

Verily1
Yes, this concerns me too.

Because DC should be educated, and in this country that means state school for the vast majority.

I'm all in favour of families who choose not to vaccinate have consequences. But making the child's education one of those consequences is a step to far. Because it will have life-long impact for that child, even though they are not the ones making the choice.

I think that reducing or cancelling eligibility to certain benefits will have very much the same effect - sends the same message and modifies behaviour.

I'd be OK with it being required for nursery/pre-school (non-compulsory age for education)

I think it’s an authoritarian proposal, I do not agree with it at all.

They could always set up a system where children have to register with school whether they are vaccinated or not. And for the reportable diseases like measles if there is an outbreak in that county or neighbouring county then those unvaccinated children are not allowed in til the outbreak has passed

That’s what NYC and most cities do. It’s a workable way to contain an outbreak.

it does worry me that people who lead chaotic lives or are abusive to their children are more likely to ignore immunisation programmes, and their children would then be denied an education

I thought the idea was that unvaccinated kids would be able to have a catch-up program, not be excluded?

I can't say I like the idea of unvaccinated kids being forced into HE ... can't see antivaxxers being good at educating kids in science, assessment on the validity of information etc...but OTOH, as things stand I'd guess parents with kids who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons will find they have to HE instead.

My children had a child at their school with cancer and his immune system was low. Parents were reminded that non vaccinated children at the school would be a deadly risk for this child. There are illnesses coming back which were irradicated in the UK for decades all because people don’t vaccinate their children

Yes, although the report I heard mentioned exemptions for medical reasons (totally valid and important) BUT also for conscientious objections. So the idea is only to get the lazy, disorganised parents to do it, not the actual anti-vaxxers. Which I think is a missed opportunity. I don't think you should get to conscientiously object to protecting other people's children from life-threatening illnesses.

Parents shouldn't be forced to do it.

But like many things, refusal to do it should be difficult, ie no school.

The government is here to look after three people and this is a reasonable thing to mandate

@HollyGoLoudly1
I just mean the general idea of compulsory vaccinations.

Oh, yes I agree with that!

bridgetreilly
On the contrary; as it stands now you do in fact get to object from having such utilitarian principles foisted upon your child.
I guess it comes down to whether you agree with utilitarian ethics. On balance I don't think that I do. A severely vaccine injured child is not simply accepted collateral damage in the quest for herd immunity. Not if its your child, not really.

They might actively believe it but I don't accept they are correct.

I didn’t say they were correct. But I have the right to make choices with regards to medical treatment based on my judgement, not yours. I can’t see why that right shouldn’t also protect my children.

I'd guess parents with kids who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons will find they have to HE instead.

I wouldn't be for that at all, I'm assuming there will be exemptions for certain cases and they will be protected by herd immunity.

It's a tricky one.

I am very pro vaccinations and have very little respect for people who are anti--vax. However, it is the children who will end up being punished for their parent's choices. You will get parents who would HS who really shouldn't and that is not fair on the child. It could have life long repercussions for those deprived of a decent education.

As a poster above mentioned, school might be the only safe space for some children.

I don't know what the answer is, but children have a right to an education and not to miss out because of their parents actions.