Or are compulsory vaccines the best political policy the Tories have ever come up with?

[HollyGoLoudly1]

In the news today, Tory health secretary is investigating compulsory vaccinations for school children.

Before I don my hard hat, for background I have a close family member who is immunocompromised. He has had multiple hospital admissions over the years for simple viruses and other illnesses that most of us wouldn't even need to stay off work for. If he catches something like measles it could be fatal.

To be honest, even disregarding this family member, I am very, very pro-vaccine and would support this policy no matter what. Even if it is from the Tories (who I definitely do not support).

puts on hard hat

“the anti vax brigade are promoting a blanket ban for vaccines”

Are they? I guess it depends on what you mean by ‘anti-vax’ No one I know who has unvaccinated/partially vaccinated children wants to ban all vaccines. Actually, most of them were pro-vaccine until their children had a bad reaction. They’d still be deemed part of the ‘anti vax brigade’ on MN though.

The flu vaccine isn't comparable to the mmr though.

If a case arose where there was a similar risk/benefit profile to mmr then my views on adult vaccination would be the same as for children. I'm not aware of anything that is.

Removing the single measles vaccine that was available on the NHS while there was an MMR scare was a stupid decision. If the government were so concerned about children being protected against measles then they would have kept the single jabs available while the MMR scare was being investigated. Taking away choice from parents majorly backfired there.

This 100%. And if you look at the arrangements made with the drugs companies to stop the single jabs that's what makes people paranoid about "big pharma" just give people a choice and the rates would have stayed up.

To answer the question though; no I think it is a very slippery slope and if the tories say this aloud fuck knows what corbyn will come out with. (And yes my kids are vaccinated).

I'm not offering a solution. I'm just saying that the anti-vax quarter are wrong.

I agree with people saying it is a multifactorial issue- education, raised awareness, removing social media platforms for dangerous false information, and improved access to healthcare should also play a large part, but I certainly commend a discussion which takes the issue seriously at government level, and explores options about changes in policy which would increase uptake, whatever that may be.

I disagree with this, though my own child is vaccinated. It is highly medically unethical - drives a coach and horses through Beauchamp and Childress for a start. It also violates the rights enshrined in law for all children to be entitled to receive state education.

I recognise the concerns this arise from, and agree the situation needs tackling. But not in this way.

I'd be all for the 'we need to maintain bodily autonomy and just educate people better re. vaccines' stance if I didn't think that large swathes of the public, particularly older people, are currently beyond education.

We have a large proportion of a couple of generations who 'have had enough of experts' and who are unable to distinguish between real and fake news.

Preserving bodily autonomy over vaccines, when people are steeped in misinformation, will lead to many illnesses, disabilities and deaths.

A rare instance of me agreeing with a potential Tory policy.

I am pro vaccine but completely against this. It's state control of the individual and I disagree on principle.

I am massively pro vaccination. I have little patience with most anti vaxxers, as so many of them just quote rubbish.

BUT I do think that the only way out of this is to acknowledge their right to choose and then make it possible for them to choose.

So, for example, bring back single vaccines. Allow parents who have concerns to have a single vaccines, at a cost.

ds had his first MMR overseas, and where we were they only gave rubella to girls, so it was MM not MMR. When we tried to catch up in UK they only way to do it was to travel 100 miles to a private clinic and pay £100.

It would be so easy to offer single vaccines at £50 per jab.
Then people could choose more, and spread their vaccines out.

The concerns some parents had over additives in vaccines can be addressed, they have been shown to be unnecessary, so let's make vaccines as pure as possible.

It is much easier to meet people half way than insist they come to your side.
We coudl probably get more than half unvaccinated kids done if these options were there.

The thing is that the children do have the right to a state education though. They just have to be vaccinated. There are other conditions to receiving a state education eg you have to be registered with the authorities and at school level children have to behave appropriately and wear appropriate uniform etc. Or they are sent home and ultimately excluded

Also if vaccination drops much more then any immune compromised children will be forced to stay off school. So letting in large numbers of unvaccinated children could ultimately, in practice, remove vulnerable children's right to a state education. Who's right to a state education is more important?

Interesting that most people on this thread are against it but the poll says differently

I am not being goady but genuinely the people that have said they are worried about bodily autonomy/ what would the government do next / it's a dark path etc - what specifically do you think would happen? What do you think the government want to do to you or other people? Someone mentioned other counties where this is law, what has happened there that you are worried about?

Maybe there should be a school in every county for children who can be vaccinated but whose parents choose not to and they can still receive their state education but without risking harm to anyone else. Totally impractical I know but would solve a lot of problems!

No. My life was adversely affected by the Rubella vaccine I had at 16, which triggered an auto immune disease. This affected me for many years and ruined the whole of my twenties, my University career and the life I potentially should have had.

It is not as simple as saying people at risk should have vaccinations in hospital, that would not have worked in my case.

I am not anti vaccine and my kids are vaccinated, but as long as people deny that there some people do have serious illnesses as a result of vaccines, I do not support making them compulsory or denying use of public services for the unvaccinated.

@BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil

Jehovah's witnesses? You need a court order to force a transfusion for a child due to the parents' beliefs- would you take that choice away from them too?

Yes I bloody well would!! And yet I feel uneasy about enforced a vaccinations but I can't articulate clearly why. It feels like assault to me?

All of our children are vaccinated but we paid (through the nose!) to have MMR as separate vaccinations. That had nothing to do with autism but just because it seemed like an awful lot of poorly to be putting into a very small body at once. However, to keep them safe and well and to protect others who are perhaps less safe and well, we went ahead-future proofing I suppose. Preventative medicine. But would we be forced to have them take a combined MMR because the law said so? I think vaccinations because parents are well educated about them and have faith that they work is better than forcing it on people.

The blood transfusion thing though?? Fuck that. A child in need of a transfusion is already very poorly-it's not future proofing or preventative, it's here and now! So I'd absolutely support a law to put an end to that (well, to the whole cult religion actually but that's a different thread...)

Maybe there should be a school in every county for children who can be vaccinated but whose parents choose not to and they can still receive their state education but without risking harm to anyone else.

I love this. Parents would have to find the bus to get them there too!

The school woudl probably have an interesting curriculum...lentil weaving.....

@LaBelleSauvage point taken and I'm sure it must drive you mad tackling pseudo-science every day with actual science and not being listened to.

My point was that (and I cannot remember who said it and I'm probably hideously misquoting) that saying about 'I may not respect your opinion but I'll fight for respecting the right to hold it.

That;s what I was driving at re. bodily autonomy. I mentioned Jehovah's Witnesses before, and I am thinking of a particular case where a judge had to be woken in the middle of the night and held an impromptu court hearing in his home to be able to make a court order for a life saving blood transfusion for a child. The parents knew the risks, knew what the outcome would be because theyd been through this with another child of theirs already but still couldnt consent to the treatment due to their beliefs. I read the case and was thinking by the end of it 'why wouldnt you just say yes- you knew what was going to happen?'

However, such is the importance we quite correctly put on our own autonomy and therefore those decisions we make on behalf of our children.

Making a blanket decision to vaccinate all children would be an absolute ethical minefield- and it sets dangerous precedent for infringing on personal rights that stem from bodily autonomy. 'For the greater good' has a chilling effect on that.

@gettingabitdesperatenow Actually over half of all measles cases are in 15 plus.

And flu is more likely to effect young adults for certain strains than any other age.

City workers and commuters are in close proximity to thousands of people every day.

We could have different tax codes for those who are not completely up to date with all vaccines including flu. Maybe a 10% higher income tax rate. Or remove their driving licence unless they are up to date.

It's a great idea in principle, but try telling my autistic teens that.

So much ignorance on here regarding herd immunuty. I suggest you read up on what it is before commenting.
I almost died from a severe vaccine reaction, my uncle almost died from a reaction to the smallpox vaccine, and my child has severe allergies like my own...so I am petrified of her reacting to vaccines...yet family history of severe vaccine reaction is no longer considered a reason not to vaccinate. If compulsory vaccinations are brought in, it could be a death sentence for my child.

What vaccine ingredient is your whole family allergic to, Hatchimalla?

How is the vote going? I can't vote b/c I'm on the fence!

I grew up in a place with compulsory jabs. So it's 'normal' to me but there are loopholes, home-edders...

My dad almost died from meningitis; is deaf in one ear from it.

How is the vote going?
79% YANBU, from 251 votes.

What vaccine ingredient is your whole family allergic to, Hatchimalla?

I didn't have an allergic reaction. I had a temp over 40 degrees for 2 weeks and was hallucinating, and not eating anything...aged 2. The doctors at the time told my parents I was going to die. After I recovered they told my parents not to vaccinate me against anything else..
I have severe allergies and so had my uncle and so does my child. It's not that far fetched to think that our immune systems might be making us have severe reactions to vaccines and therefore I don't want to risk my daughter's life by vaccinating her. In the 70s/80s/90s, and probably more recently, family history of vaccine reaction was a major red flag. Not these days though, unless you actually have a severe allergic reaction to a specific vaccine...and then they tell you not to have it again. I had measles, asymptomatic mumps, chicken pox, scarlet fever, Sydney flu and Swine flu etc and wasn't anywhere nearly as unwell as I was after being given the old polio vaccine.

I couldn't say whether compulsory vaccines for kids is a good idea without knowing how they intend to do it.

Having read accounts of children who were denied vaccines by their parents it seems cruel to effectively punish them twice by them missing school/or living in greater poverty due to benefits removal, so I'm not keen on either if those suggestions.

It's easy to say a thing like this, but much less easy to come up with a way to actually do it that doesn't have negative repercussions.

I think attempts at compulsory vaccination will only strengthen the antivaxxers.

I cannot agree that the Government has the right to compel parents to put substances into their children’s bodies that they actively believe are harmful

I have no interest in what they think, because it is fact free nonsense. If a parent who was big into conspiracy theories and genuinely believed that all liquids had mind control agents added by the government and the only safe water to drink was stagnant ditchwater, would you be supportive of that?

If conspiracy loons and the terminaly stupid want to risk their own wellbeing, crack on, but they don't have absolute rights over their offspring's body.

Why don't the health agencies either go back to the single vaccines or offer a choice of single vaccines or the triple vaccine. From what I have seen & read most of the loss of trust & doubt has been caused since the triple vaccine was introduced & vaccination numbers have dropped.

Why don't the health agencies either go back to the single vaccines or offer a choice of single vaccines

Because there's no risk to the triple vaccine as compared to the single vaccines which will be significantly more expensive and logistically complex to administer. By offering the vaccines singly, it adds credence to the nonsense pedalled by cranks like Wakefield and would erode trust in the vaccination programme overall.

If a parent refused to treat their child’s curable Cancer then social services involvement would triggered. I think this policy needs a similar SS trigger when healthy children aren’t immunised so the authorities can spot at risk children faster.