Or are compulsory vaccines the best political policy the Tories have ever come up with?

[HollyGoLoudly1]

In the news today, Tory health secretary is investigating compulsory vaccinations for school children.

Before I don my hard hat, for background I have a close family member who is immunocompromised. He has had multiple hospital admissions over the years for simple viruses and other illnesses that most of us wouldn't even need to stay off work for. If he catches something like measles it could be fatal.

To be honest, even disregarding this family member, I am very, very pro-vaccine and would support this policy no matter what. Even if it is from the Tories (who I definitely do not support).

puts on hard hat

Have we really exhausted all of the other options open to us first?

Like making making good quality accessible info available, easier access to appointments, stamping down on fake news, health promotion (im sure cleverer people will have better ideas than mine!)

For those banging on about autonomy- there are lots of things that for the most part the state wont let you deny your kids. Food, for example.

Should we say the state shouldn't interfere in cases where parents aren't adequately feeding their children? After all food alergies kill more children than vaccines... Does that also violate bodily autonomy? No. Because the state knows better than Karen from Facebook. Karen who thinks she knows better than every single doctor in the UK... and indeed the world over.

Yours,

A fed up doctor tired of dealing with idiots who think their opinion deserves respect.

Errol
I believe that a parent has a right to take their chances with measles or to take their chances with vaccination.

Not every vaccinated child is injured, not every unvaccinated child contracts measles.

Its not a quest for bodily autonomy per se but rather the right to risk assess vaccines on their individual merits in relation to our children.

I for example chose the single measles vaccine for my younger DC following my elder child's adverse reaction to the MMR. Just because I chose an off schedule vaccine doesn't mean my children are unprotected or at risk of causing or contributing to a measles outbreak.
On official statistics however my children will be deemed to be unvaccinated against measles as only MMR uptake numbers are included.

It's been successful so far in France www.cnn.com/2019/07/03/health/france-fighting-vaccine-skepticism-partner-intl/index.html

The risk from vaccine shedding is much lower than the risk from unvaccinated children. Vaccines are either not live (a disabled form of the disease) or a weakened form of the disease eg a very mild strain. Yes for some vaccines you are told to stay away from immune compromised people. The same people youd have to stay away from with a cold. Still not as bad as getting measles. And it's much easier to be careful when you know when they have had the injection rather than walking about with a week long incubation period for a killer disease unknowingly

I'm very pro-vaccine but no I don't think it should be forced. And especially with the tories I am concerned that it's the start of a slippery slope regarding forced medical treatment.

Patients and parents when the patient is a child should ALWAYS have the right to refuse - even if I disagree with that decision.

Also the low rates are apparently NOT ONLY due to anti-vaxxers but also because of the cuts meaning it's become difficult for some parents to ACCESS immunisation or keep up with the schedule.

THAT needs to be addressed first and foremost.

And a public health campaign to educate people would in my opinion be a better strategy. A VERY clear simple one:

Eg the mmr does NOT cause autism or inflammatory bowel disease. This has been proven false. Yes there are very slight risks with immunisation but the diseases they prevent are far more likely to cause your child to become VERY ill (I wonder if old footage of children who suffered complications could be used or testimony from older generations or current generations of people/parents who have been left disabled/Bereaved due to measles etc? I'm Nc with my sister and we don't agree on many things but she lost most of her hearing due to catching measles from a non vaccinated child as a baby before she could get vaccinated herself. She's absolutely go on an ad saying vaccinate your child, don't have them risk what I've been through. I also know someone who was left infertile from mumps because their mother didn't vaccinate them)

I don't think the herd immunity thing works as a persuader as people respond better to how it benefits them and theirs.

However I must admit, I love that scene in "House" though where house is treating a child that's not been vaccinated

m.youtube.com/watch?v=urZLTobAfJc

My parents generation very much remember babies DYING From measles, whooping cough etc

When I was a baby there was a scare that the whooping cough vaccine was linked to cot death. Later proven false of course but at the time very much in the news and being discussed and several of my parents friends and relatives were deciding not to give their children that vaccination. My mum visited her dr with me around this point and the dr went to raise the issue with her expecting to be met with resistance and she went "oh no! I've seen a child die of whooping cough she is absolutely being vaccinated" and the dr sighed with relief and said they wished all parents would be so sensible as to actually listens to their Drs rather than headlines!

I actually still got bloody whooping cough a few years ago (apparently in people my age the efficacy is starting to reduce and so in people like me who have other lung issues - I have asthma and have had various infections over the years leaving scar tissue this means I effectively only have 1.5 lungs!) there is a slight rise in risk of catching. It WAS horrible BUT I didn't get it nearly as bad as I've seen in unvaccinated people and I recovered relatively quickly.

"It violates the basic principle of bodily autonomy in matters of medical treatment." Absolutely

"I don't agree it should be linked to benefits - that just means only the wealthier get to choose and the poor don't." Totally agree with this!

"I guess I maybe don't agree that body autonomy in this specific issue is more important than protecting people from serious diseases" but that PRINCIPLE of bodily autonomy HAS to be absolute or else you WILL start going down a very dodgy road! I speak as an ex nurse and as I worked mainly in geriatric I treated/nursed many who had been harmed severely by such illnesses or lost children or siblings etc to them, but they also had lived through an era where there was a LOT of totalitarianism and some had even lived under such regimes and even they would and did say that allowing a govt to enforce "treatment" is a VERY dangerous road to go down!

PLEASE I urge you to read and leave more about the medical ethics of enforced treatment and look at parts of the world where this did/does occur - I feel sure you will rethink.

"Maybe they realise that educating people hasn't worked" show me a recent example of where they've tried?! I've seen sod all in recent years!!

If compulsory vaccinations work so well why is measles sweeping through cities where this measure is in place (see New York)?

If the disease can spread like wildfire in parts of the US, a country where most states do not allow unvaccinated children to enrol in school, why would introducing the policy here be any different? It really doesn't appear to offer immuno-compromised children any more protection since unvaccinated children are still free to wonder around public places. One major outbreak started at Disneyland. Another when a child travelled on a plane.

I really doubt anti-vaxxers will care if their unvaccinated kids are banned from schools. It will simply strengthen their conspiracy theories about Big Pharma and the government. In any case, Matt Hancock said last week he wants to introduce compulsory vaccinations but will allow exemptions on religious grounds so it all seems a bit pointless.

As I've mentioned on a different thread, doctors up and down the country have advised that the reduced MMR uptake can only partially be explained by anti-vaxxers. A bigger issue is some communities are unable to access vaccinations for a number of reasons and administrative inefficiency. The government really needs to focus on that.

But a parent who is letting their child take their chances with catching measles is also taking the chance that if there is a measles outbreak in their area, they are also 'taking the chance' with their pregnant neighbour, their baby nephew, their sick granny, and the immune compromised boy in their class. They are not just affecting their own chances of getting ill, they are affecting other people's chances of catching a disease that could kill them. And that's not fair.
If you want to 'take your chances' with measles then that's your choice. But when it starts to affect others then your choice to mix with others that it affects should be taken away

Should we say the state shouldn't interfere in cases where parents aren't adequately feeding their children?

Well I’m pro autonomy and mentioned food in my reply. A child is guaranteed to become ill without adequate food. So it’s okay for the state to step in and protect a child from being starved. A child isn’t guaranteed to become ill without vaccines so it’s a choice for the parents.

Like I said, I had my daughter vaccinated and my choice for her chimed with medical guidance. There are plenty of other things I can imagine not agreeing with and it’s not okay for the state to overrule parental choice on this - herd immunity is important but on an individual basis the unvaccinated child isn’t at immediate risk.

Well where do we start and stop, MMR, Hib, Tetanus, Flu? Are all you adults upto date with your jabs?

@LaBelleSauvage
For those banging on about autonomy- there are lots of things that for the most part the state wont let you deny your kids. Food, for example.

That’s a really bad analogy because you are comparing a small risk of death with certain death. You can live a long life without vaccines with a bit of luck, but you 100% won’t live more than a month without food.

It should be a last resort, if rates continue to fall. I’d worry it would lead to children being removed from the education system. There is a lot more that can be done. Doctors actually listening to parents concerns and answering them would be a start in trying to counteract misinformation spread online. Dd had a swelling reaction (face) to her 1 year jabs and so many Hcps I’ve mentioned it too have completely dismissed it, despite her being treated by a doctor afterwards. I’ve even heard ‘she probably got swollen eyes from crying’ ffs. She has another allergy and I pushed for her to have the follow up jabs in hospital but for some reason this proved near impossible for the admin team and her mmr booster was delayed. I’d bet good money that lots of kids fall through the cracks because of poor organisation on the part of the parents or the surgery, rather than an intent to not vaccinate. I have a friend who’s child has never been called for any jabs despite her logging it with her surgery many times. She had forgotten her ds was due his mmr until I mentioned my ds was having his.

I disagree with this policy so long as the individual jabs are no longer available. However I believe that the people should pay for the individual jabs if they don't want the MMR, but the government have taken that choice away from parents

@LaBelleSauvage
Everybody’s opinion deserves respect whether it differs from yours or not. Just because you’re a doctor doesn’t mean you know it all.

I totally disagree with this. Where would it end?! What would they bring out next?! Totally worrying really!

"Maybe they realise that educating people hasn't worked" show me a recent example of where they've tried?! I've seen sod all in recent years!

In my area there was a measles outbreak last year. There were public messages to get vaccinated - the nhs were sending stuff out, there were radio and tv adverts, newspapers, all saying things like they were 99.999999pc safe, the autism story was proved false, etc. Doctors were sending out letters to unvaccinated people asking them to come in. About 10pc of people who needed catch up shots responded.

I agree that it isn't just anti vax people who are causing this though I think it's also prevalent in some communities for different reasons, and some people will just not do it because they dont engage with government services etc. Also practically i can see how its difficult for some people- the clinics at my doctor are on a set day on a set time, no flexibility, and I can see how if it was difficult to get off work that it would just be a task for another time that gets left.

Maybe they could do something to try and catch the people that fall outside the net for those reasons other than those who are fundamentally opposed to it eg an opt out system done through pre school

And it's the tories. I absolutely would not trust them on this.

After all food alergies kill more children than vaccines... Does that also violate bodily autonomy?

Really terrible analogy.

If you force fed every child in the country to eat scrambled eggs made with milk against their wishes and then said 'but you need protein and calcium, sorry a few of you died but its government policy' how well do you think that would go down?

Bodily autonomy is something very important, that encompasses right and concepts far larger than vaccinations and making glib remarks about 'idiots who think their opinion deserves respect' does nothing to make me respect yours no matter how right (or not) you may be.

Why do people think an increase in home schooling is worse than an increase in children dying from preventable diseases?

Don’t agree with it, everyone should have a choice, and free education shouldn’t be conditional.

Terrible idea. Enforced vaccination has resulted in lower vaccination rates in the past. Education, support (and giving people options) is the best way to increase vaccination rates.

Removing the single measles vaccine that was available on the NHS while there was an MMR scare was a stupid decision. If the government were so concerned about children being protected against measles then they would have kept the single jabs available while the MMR scare was being investigated. Taking away choice from parents majorly backfired there.

And LOL at the suggestion down thread that all vaccinations should be made compulsory for adults too. I'm never had the flu jab/nasal spray or whatever it is and anyone who thinks I can be forced into that can get to fuck.

@PinkiOcelot

Not everyone's opinion deserves respect. That's a silly thing to say. Some deserve to be refuted and ridiculed- should we respect the opinions of racists? Of ethnic cleansing dictators?

We are all entitled to an opinion- but we are not entitled to have it respected regardless of what it is or who it harms.

I've picked an extreme example to prove my point. But the point is- I don't respect the opinion of anti-vaxxers and it's perfectly acceptable not to respect it. And yes I do know more after nearly 2 decades of medical training. It'd be ridiculous to think I wouldn't.

But even if you want to rubbish the opinion of one doctor- fine- but the issue is that these people are ignoring the opinion of EVERY doctor.

Funny how forced vaccines for kids is viewed differently to forced vaccines for adults.

@bananas your analogy could also use a little tweaking.

Doctors don't force feed everyone with the same medication. We make carefully calculated decisions based on the person's individual circumstances, and carefully weigh risk vs benefit. We do this daily.

If a child ought not to get a vaccine- they don't get it. If a child is lactose intolerant, or we recommend a special diet.

The difference is that the anti vax brigade are promoting a blanket ban for vaccines, with no subtlety or thought whatsoever.

Strangerthanstrange

I dont think it's strange its logical.

Vaccination rates are falling. There isn't an issue with large percentage of unvaccinated adults.

Children are super spreaders of disease. They are in closer proximity. They are more touchy feely and less hygienic. Vaccinating them has more effect

There is not the same single public service that every adult uses, in the same way that children use schools. How would they make vaccines mandatory in adults, what service should they make dependent on vaccination? It's not as practical as saying 'get your jabs before you come to school'

Above post in response to stranger than strange but wouldn't let me @