To think that if you want employers to start work at a certain time, they should get paid for it?

[Refreshretry]

My work had recently implemented a new automated clock in system whereby we are paid to the minute. Previously we would have been paid from our start time of 9 but usually we were there a few minutes early to set up, etc. All fine. Start times would be adjusted and rounded up/down to the to reflect this.

The new system says we now have to clock In exactly at 9 and if we are in early we won't get paid for it. Aibu to think if you want people to come in early and start working straight away they should be paid for it? Essentially it's meant that people are either coming in later and not setting up in advance as they are not being paid for it or are losing a couple hours over the course of the week as the extra minutes are now not there. It's causing some tension now as work as people are not happy being essentially asked to work chunks of time for free.

Our team arrive at least half an hour before they start work. They all get their stuff sorted out, drink coffee, have a natter then clock in and start work at 8.30am. Many a time I've gone out and some are already working before though.

It seems quite petty to be clock watching tbh. You are talking minutes.

Years ago we had this at Sainsbury's. The clock in was accurate but pay rounded to 15 minutes. Lots of work stuff was expected to be done before/ after clock-in/out. Often adding 30 minutes or more to a shift. Which you then we're not paid for. But clock in three minutes late and you were docked 15 minutes.

@cassianAndor

I'm of the view that if work/set-up is needed before patients/ customers come in, then the shift needs to reflect this.

If a clinic starts at 9am. The shift (for at least some staff) needs to start at 8:30am.

I have a work associate , he boasts to anyone unfortunate enough to be in earshot that he has "been in since 7am" but another work colleague gets in at 8, and can see that he hasnt actually started any work by then and generally is looking at (non work) stuff on the computer, having a coffee and chatting until at least 9

I must have worked with his brother! We had flexitime. I tended to start late-ish (9.30 or so) so I had time to give the dog a good long walk before work. X always "started work" early, 8-ish. He used to take the piss out of me for starting "so late it's nearly lunchtime".

During a particularly busy spell where I was covering for 2 other people as well as doing my own job, I started coming in at 8 for a while. X would get in at 8, but he'd make a coffee, swan around the building have a chat with every fucking person working there as they drifted in, before finally rocking up and holding court in the communal kitchen around 10. He didn't do a fucking stroke of work before 10.30!

During the rest of the day, he would often pop out on errands, which were easily disguised as the organisation was split across several sites in the same small town. He'd "Pop up to the print room" and come back having clearly had a haircut, or "Take some papers over to the court", said papers looking mysteriously like library books or a bag of veg from the greengrocers. And he'd do a similar tour of the building before leaving on the dot of 4pm.

When he took early retirement + redundancy, and his "workload" was distributed among 3 of us, we didn't even notice the extra. And he was only retired 18 months before his marriage broke up, we reckon his wife couldn't bear having the lazy fucker at home.

thecat schools are the worst for expecting this , especially from support staff who are paid by the hour

No, legally they can't do it, because it drops you below minimum wage, but try kicking up a stink. Most of these jobs are 0 hours, and you start quibbling and that's exactly what you'll get.

And that is precisely why I think ZHCs should be outlawed. It makes it possible for employers to fire people without any comeback.

cassian
People not turning up for appointments takes appointments away from others who need it.

Someone starting work at 9am when they are paid and contracted to do it is not arrogant.

The difference is fairly obvious.

If a clinic starts at 9am. The shift (for at least some staff) needs to start at 8:30am
This.

And if someone's shift starts at 9am then that's the time they work.

If people have an issue with this maybe they should stop voting in people who want to slasha and burn public services instead of making stupid comments about how lazy and arrogant front line staff

I don't vote those people in. Many people don't. Has that occurred to you? Am I still allow to have an issue with this?

Everyone I know as a patient always thinks, well, if someone doesn't turn up then maybe the appointments can get back to being on time, instead of me having to leave work early, getting here on time and then waiting half an hour to be seen. Because of course the appointments have started late right from the get go.

If your response to an underfunded, stretched service is to call front line staff arrogant for wanting to start work when they are meant to instead of working more unpaid overtime than many already do then yes, you're unreasonable.

If your response is to complain to the trust about the need for staff contracts and hours to adequately drawn up to ensure things are prompt then that's not unreasonable.

I've got loads of friends in the health service who are routinely going over their hours trying to out patients first, often at the expense of their own wellbeing and families. It's nice to know that you just accept that as the norm and if they dare stop doing this the they'd be arrogant because it holds your day up 30mins.

I've lost 4hrs last week

If you worked 5 days last week, that's 5 "before work" slots and 5 "after work" slots. 10 slots in total.

4 hours / 10 = 24 minutes. That's nearly an hour every day. I can see why the owner or manager might be trying to get a handle on this.

@CassianAndor

But why blame the staff and call them arrogant? They're working from when they're paid to work. The arrogance is from the management who know that by deliberately doing this, there will be patients that think like you do, and voice it. That puts the staff in a totally shit position of either working unpaid overtime, or knowing if they don't, they're going to have complaints against them. Again, management know exactly what they're doing, and they're doing it to save on budget at the expense of the staff.

@boptist yes, and when you times that by 5 staff in a day etc it's easy to see where the new system saves the management money on staff hours. Except the work still needs to be done. The staff are still doing it. Now we just aren't being paid to do it.

I object very strongly to anyone calling NHS staff “arrogant” for refusing to work unpaid. The surgeons regularly tried to bully the theatre nursing team to work late in the evening to avoid cancelling the cases that the surgeons had overbooked - these poor nurses were already badly paid for the hours they contracted to work, and most had child care arrangements with set pick up times, so couldn’t do it anyway. And giving them “time back” in lieu was a joke- we were never so flush with staff that they could leave early to reclaim it.
My patients didn’t have “an appointment” at 9am, by the way - they were admitted either the night before or morning of surgery, for an unspecified operation time.

I started the theatre list with a safety briefing at 9, while the first patient was being processed at theatre reception.
Incidentally, I was widowed with two young children, and couldn’t even set off to commute to work until the nanny arrived - so it was impossible for me to get to the hospital for 8.30, even if I’d been willing to work for nothing. Which I bloody well wasn’t!
I should add that I had no protected or paid lunch or tea breaks - I ate a sandwich in the theatre while taking care of an unconscious patient, and put a cup of coffee on the anaesthetic machine.

*CassianAndor

Lolawhen patients are always being told how much them missing appointments costs the NHS, yes, it's arrogant. Like I said in my example - every patient, some elderly, in the clinic I went to was there in good time, ie before the first 9am appointment. Not a single member of staff was there for that 9am appointment, for the clinic to start on time. Not one.*

Not related to people being expected to work unpaid but my DD had several apts in one hospital dept. They booked them 6-8 weeks ahead and all were in school/ work hours. We were unable to make a couple of them due to being on holiday or i couldnt take the day of work. Each time i called to cancel or rearrange (with 1-2 weeks notice,) and every time i got a bollocking at the next apt for "being down as a no-show". I tried calling and leaving answer phone messages, calling and in rare cases leaving a message with a real person, or cancelling online.
I really objected that we were being included in the "missed appointments " statistics when i had tried several ways (in reasonable time) to let them know!

babdoc
Those experiences sound similar to people I know.

Naturally, health service staff seem to suffer from the same probkems school staff do: people thinking that because they are taxpayer funded services that staff in the sectors should be treated like shit, sacrifice their own wellbeing and family for the job and if they dare raise systemic issues or try to reclaim some of their own time / draw attention to the additional hours they do, they're deemed arrogant/lazy/entitled and so on.

It's almost like there's been an genda for years to chip away at these services whilst encouraging the public to blame front line workers.

Rosebys was awful for unpaid overtime when i worked there in the mid 2000s And moaned at me needing time off for my Depo injection and said i might not be able to attend it, even though id booked it for my day off but then they changed my day off with just a few hours notice. Yet bent over backwards for the parents who worked there who were allowed to run off and leave the till unattended if their partner moaned they couldnt collapse the buggy while in the supermarket up the road. Members of staff were promised "time off in lieu" which they never got back.

The staff are still doing it. Now we just aren't being paid to do it.

But what are you doing for half an hour before and after your shift?

I love being a temp. Stroll in at 08:57. Turn off my computer at 17:00.

No flips given.

Refilling stock, getting stuff ready for the day, cleaning down, waiting for customers to leave, etc etc.

Refilling stock, getting stuff ready for the day, cleaning down, waiting for customers to leave, etc etc.
If it's after closing time the customer should have been told to leave by someone senior.
Management will have to pay the wraparound or they'll find staff looking for new jobs.

I was in a shop tonight that closed at 6. By 545 only one till was on as it was quiet, other staff were whipping rounds tidying. I presume that was so they could close at 6pm and go home. At a friend's work the managers and supervisors would have half an hour added on either end of the day to do the wraparound stuff.

When I worked in school I was paid hourly and paid minimum hours.
I asked if I could be paid to set up in the morning and for hand over/staff meetings once the school day had finished. The response was no. I was paid from 9am , AFTER the school day had started! I always arrived early. They took an hour off all support staff for lunch each day, then expected us to do unpaid activities during our lunch break. Again I asked if I could be paid after being asked to supervise a lunch time activity club. The response was no.
We were expected to 'volunteer' to help out at numerous events such as after school discos, find raising events etc etc.
Then there were times I was asked to watch the children who's parents didn't turn up to collect them on time. Again unpaid and with no thanks.
The final straw came when we were rotated in on our lunch breaks, again unpaid, to administer essential medical treatments. I went out one day only for the assistant head to ask in astonishment where I was going.
When I replied why? He said well what if you are needed for x and y? I said well pay me then!

Totally took the piss.

Refilling stock, getting stuff ready for the day, cleaning down, waiting for customers to leave, etc etc.

Half an hour doing that sounds very different to the “few minutes set up” you mention in your first post. What would happen if you just did all of that within your hours?

Can you say what kind of shop it is? Superdrug? Subway? Superdry?

It's an independent family run business so they set their own opening hours. There have been times where they keep serving people beyond the closing time because as far as they are concerned if people are still wanting to come in, they will let them in and serve them. They need the money, hate turning people away, and feel it's good customer service.

We do try and do it all within the work hours but sometimes it is busy from the second we open the doors so we just don't have time to restock the shelves so jobs need to get done whenever we can.

emily something similar happened to me. Was Christmas temping in retail 15 years ago. We usually had an hour lunch break On Christmas Eve i had arranged to meet someone for lunch. It wasnt until that morning when i went into work that i found out that on CE lunch would be half an hour and we wernt aloud to leave the premises. They had laid on sandwiches and Pringles for lunch.

I had to phone and cancel my lunch plans. It was the lack of.........................downright no notice that i objected to.

It’s annoying but I think most jobs do the same these days. I’m a midwife in the NHS. I have a regular antenatal clinic. I am paid from 9am which is my official start time. However my first patient walks in the door at 9am so I need to arrive at 8.30am at the latest or they will be walking in to a room with no equipment set up, no notes prepared etc.