How can I help my dd re friendships

[Losingtheplot01]

Ok.
Organised a birthday party for my daughter and her friends incl her 3 best friends
She is in senior school with one of them, I’ll call her 1st girl and 2 of them went to different schools and for ease I’ll call them 2nd and 3rd. The numbers are purely in reference to the order I’m mentioning them.
So as well as a party it was a sort of reunion as dd hadn’t seen 2nd and 3rd during the hols but had seen 1st a bit more because both our families were around more.

The girl she is still at school (1st girl) with is lovely when they are alone but when the other two are there, there is a very obvious pecking order. My dd feels this and tries to just get on and pretend it’s ok but every time it happens she is hurt. This happens often so in a group of 4 she’s often on the edge.
For example, I changed the timing to ensure that the 3rd one, could come and when she arrived the 1st one latched onto her and kept saying things like I want to be with you and the 2nd girl and basically no mention of my dd. I know she was excited to see them as they hadn’t over the hols but My dd was also super excited to see the 2nd and 3rd ones.
The 3rd girl then Followed suit and kept saying things like I want to sit you (1st girl) here, pointing to her left side and you (2nd girl) pointing to her right side.
I then asked what about dd and she just looked a bit sheepish? I said if you say that when there’s 4 of you how do you think the 4th one will feel? She said she didn’t mean it that way.
We had organised an activity and they had to pair up. 1st and 3rd girls basically said they wanted to be together with 2nd girl. There were some other girls at this too so dd made a :( face and agreed to be with them.
When she went with the other group I asked the girls as I’ve known them a while, to please try and include her as she does get hurt by it and as it’s her birthday it would be nice if they included her.
The 2nd one is the most relaxed and equal with everyone so she said don’t worry we will. She makes sure my daughter isn’t excluded but is sometimes swept up by the other two.
My daughter adores these girls but I sometimes wish she’d just stop accepting being treated this way.

My oh said I shouldn’t have said anything and that we need to let dd work things out but I was getting quite upset watching her be pushed out of the group and it came out.

I think I was upset as I see it time and time again.
DD is friendly with everyone and we’ll liked and when she met the 2nd girl they clicked. 2nd girl gets on with lots of people so dd isn’t demanding of her time but they both then made friends with 1st and 3rd girl and have been close for a few years.

I don’t know how to help my dd. This sort of thing really has chipped away at her confidence but I don’t know if I’m over reacting or being unreasonable. I experienced the same at school and still do now so find the
Whole friendship thing tricky to navigate.
My dd suffers with anxiety but does try and get on with things but I wish she would just say no that this isn’t acceptable. And that she deserves better.

I know I shouldn’t out my issues on my dd but because I have experienced the same i find it hard to not.

I hope I don’t sound unhinged or too mad. I really am struggling with this and feel like I accepted this for far too long in my youth and even as an adult and have mental health issues and depression and a very deep rooted lack of self worth/esteem and think this sort of thing played a big part in that and I would dearly love to avoid my dd following in my footsteps

I hope this makes sense. I just want to help my dd be happy and confident and to not accept being anyone’s back up friend. Or should I just leave her alone to deal with things herself? I should add this has been going on for a while and she is 12

Thank you in advance

The sad face wasn’t because she didn’t want to be with the other girls more that yet again her besties didn’t include/want her.

Sorry that was so long.

This can be an awful age for friends. I think all you can do is try to teach her strategies to cope in these situations. It may be that she will drift from these girls and make different friends.

Its an awful situation OP and I am really sorry.I have the same thing with my daughter who is 7.There is a group of girls in her class and they are in a tight clique.My daughter isn;t allowed to join them to play and it makes my blood boil.It is really common in schools and I spoke to the class teacher who to be fair tried to make them all play together.It didnt sadly resolve anything.So I explained to my daughter that it was wrong to exclude people and it wasnt her fault.She didnt go to the dancing.acting classes they went to cos it wasnt her thing and I encouraged her to make different friends.What did help us was the classes being split up this year,It forced new friendships to be made and its working lovely.My daughter has new friends and I can relax a bit.It is awful though and it hurts when you see your child not being included.I also a million times a day at least tell her how amazing,bright ,clever,funny she is and she never has to apologise for being herself.I build her up and try to instill confidence and that the she doesnt have to be a sheep and follow everyone else! She now has some new friends and seems really happy and settled and as she can kick a football as well as any boy shes often sought out to play a game! I dont know of anything to say to make you feel better nor am I able to offer any advice I wish I could but I just wanted you to see it can happen to anyone at any age,as wrong as that is.We need more time in schools for pastoral care I feel really strongly about this issue.My son in law is a teacher and agrees but sadly with pressures of curriculam they dont have the time to implement it and we all find that a bit sad.I hope your situation resolves its self and your daughter can be as happy as mine seems to be

It’s so hard isn’t it not to feel all the hurt your kids feel. I think it’s inevitable that there’ll be struggles with friendships especially at senior school. All I can say is, it will get better. Your daughter will eventually find new friends. 12 is such a hard age, but try not to worry. She’ll get through it and come out stronger for it.

Don't invite them together if they are going to behave like that! My dd is a bit younger, but does much better 1:1.

Thank you SnuggyBuggy. It is hard isn’t it. Sigh.
She has always been well liked but was anyone’s first choice or bestie until this group who are or at least were lovely. Yesterday, after a break from seeing the dynamic at play and just thinking hmm but never saying anything, it felt very magnified somehow. Plus it was dds birthday thing and that somehow made it worse. Thanks for your reply though. I want sure I was being overly sensitive.

Sally, I’m sorry your daughter experienced this. Making blood boil is exactly it. Glad she found her people in the end and is happy. That’s all we want for our kids don’t we?

The same group have ‘form’ for this sort of thing before but I always, wrongly, assumed it was just one of those things.

Dd is starting to make new friends and I think where I was encouraging dd to keep in touch with the older ones I think maybe I’ll just stop asking about them. She is sensitive and considerate, to the point of removing herself in certain situations. Even tho she wants to join in she knows how it feels to be left out so won’t do that to anyone else even if it means she herself gets left out often.

Dds old school talked a lot about kindness and empathy and being thoughtful but I sometimes wonder if those innate things can be taught but I do agree and wish schools had more time for pastoral support where maybe these sorts of scenarios are discussed and kids have a chance to say how they would feel in those situations. Kind of talking things thru to make them aware.

Thank you for your help. It’s good I’m a way to know she/we aren’t alone in this. And I am encouraging her and always have done to be herself but I think being in the outside of a ‘friendship’ can be very lonely so I think sometimes she does follow a bit too much maybe.

I was the same and have always thought there was something wrong with me. But in counselling I was told that I’d beaten myself up for years and now I need to look at empathy and sensitivity as a strength and. It a weakness.

Thank you again xx

Op, you're not unhinged at all. Many sympathies to you, this is an upsetting but also quite common scenario. As you've described, once they are together in a group there is often a pecking order, and someone will be at the end of the list. (Partly about all the dc trying to secure their place in the group, I believe.) This group dynamic works well for everyone except the person who is at the end of the list!

The obvious solution for that person is to avoid being in that group, but that is often easier said than done because the dc likes the other dcs individually, and anyway may not necessarily have other friends to replace them! Appealing to the other dcs' better nature may work sometimes but ultimately their 'survival instinct' may be stronger at this age!

My advice (which I realise could be wrong!) would be to help dd avoid being in a group with these particular friends - you have the advantage that they're at different schools, so she can see the ones she likes individually in future. I wouldn't keep recongregating that group (or encouraging her to do so) - the dynamic sounds fixed, and as you say is not good for dd's self esteem if it's so obvious. I'd also encourage her to make other friends - it sounds as though she has, as there were others at the birthday activity, so that is really positive!

Group gatherings don't always work for everyone, but we have a rose-tinted view of what fun they are. When I think about it a lot of adults find one on one socialising more relaxing, so it's not surprising that some dc are also not group 'winners'!

Thank you for replying, Morning. Good to know it will get better. Fingers toes and everything else crossed.

Stomp, thank you and yes. We had a few plays with the 1st child in the summer and I thought wow they’re so close but the dynamic is flipped when the 3rd child is involved. The 2nd one isn’t like that at all but gets dragged in by the others which is great for her but it when dd is also there. Maybe thats the answer or maybe she can find more evenly balanced friends.
I think I’m going to let dd take the lead from now. I’ve stepped back a lot and she is more independent in just a week and a half of senior school so hopefully she’ll be ok with our support

I was often sidelined in friendships, some girls can be very bitchy at that age, and usually all the way through senior school in my experience (I went to an all girls so maybe it was magnified). In the end I dropped the ones that made me feel I wasn’t good enough and eventually made friends some much nicer girls who weren’t like that. By the time I went to college I was much better a choosing friendships and still am! I think being made to feel like that when I was young played a part and I’m very lucky with my friends now. However, I totally see where you’re coming from, I’m very empathetic and would hate to see the same things happening to my daughter. But friendships are very fluid at that age usually. She will find her people in the end.

Aha, cross posted with Stompy, who put it so much more succinctly:

Don't invite them together if they are going to behave like that! My dd is a bit younger, but does much better 1:1

I very much agree with that advice - it is difficult with birthday parties, but fortunately they only happen annually!

It's interesting what you say about teaching kindness and empathy - I think it can work to some extent, but at this age some dc are desperate to secure their place in a group and more widely, and for them that will take priority (not their conscious reasoning, but a very powerful force!) Hope I don't sound too jaded - it's intended to be more of a detached observation, and once you know what the dynamics are it's easier to see how to address it.

In fact had a very similar experience at my 11th birthday party. Still remember it vividly.

Thanks you sooner.

And phew! I’m not unhinged.

I think as dd has always had this I have encouraged this group as she was so happy in junior school. The summer break has been good I think and this was like a litmus test in a way but only with hindsight.

I am thinking along the same lines that I won’t keep encouraging this.

The 1st girls parents were worried about her friendships so also encouraged the one between dd and her. But where as dd is very aware not to do anything that would exclude the 1st girl, it is clear now that she isn’t as loyal back.

Maybe we just need to accept that whilst she got on with them all before it’s time that she sets boundaries on what is acceptable and help her realise that this isn’t. I never did and just accepted things when I was younger and slowly it knocked my confidence and I really hated myself for this as it seemed everyone else preferred everyone else so the problem surely was that I was the problem. It affects me now, over 35 years later. And I think you’re right maybe I’m just not a socialising in a group type of person... although I do enjoy it when the balance is there.

I’m glad it’s not just me thinking along these lines.
I’m remembering other things that happened yesterday now and you’re advice I think is definitely right.

Thanks you for your help too x

We had a few plays with the 1st child in the summer and I thought wow they’re so close but the dynamic is flipped when the 3rd child is involved.

Again, an incredibly common, but also annoying and upsetting scenario. Does child 1 socialise with your dd at school, or is it only when they're alone together? If she does socialise with dd at school, then it sounds as though it's basically a good friendship, but get-togethers with dd, 1st and 3rd child are to be avoided! (No harm in dd seeing 3rd child individually if that goes well too.) If child 1 doesn't socialise with dd at school I'd be inclined gently to encourage dd to back off rather more and focus on other friends, while keeping child 1 as a friendly acquaintance.

Thanks Cats. It helps to read that you had the same and that you came out the other side. Glad you have found some good friends. I think when you experience that you also properly appreciate good friends rather than take them for granted.

Hi OP, I really feel for you. My DD is going through this at the moment. She has started secondary school and has been ostracized , belittled and ignored by her friendship group of 4, effectively they are bullying her This started in summer term of year 6 and has carried on into the new start of secondary school.

I too experienced this growing up and feel it to this day - I find it hard to establish and maintain friendships !

So it feels like history is repeating itself and makes me angry, sad, heartbroken - all the emotions.

I'm just praying in time, it will settle down and my DD will find her group.

I really do think these experiences can change your mindset in the long term for the better if can learn to identify a negative relationship and move away from it. You sound like a very supportive and loving mum so I’m sure she will move out of this kind of friendship cycle naturally.

I was going to add that people like this exists at all ages, you only have to read some of the adult friendship threads on here! Hopefully she’ll be able to identify the red flags after this experience.

It would really help your daughter if you could encourage her to speak up as you did - she needs to be less passive about the situation or they'll just continue with the mean girl schtick. My DD is stuck in a complicated friendship situation with two other girls. Girl 2 is close to my daughter – they see a lot of each other out of school – and also another child, Girl 3. But Girl 3 doesn't like the fact my DD and Girl 2 are close and insists on Girl 2 choosing between them at playtimes and Girl 2 always complies. My DD gets very upset at being pushed out and does her best to smooth over the situation by compromising what she wants to do so Girl 2 doesn't feel like piggy in the middle all the time, but sometimes she really wishes Girl 2 would just tell Girl 3 to stop being so nasty. But Girl 2 never says anything and so the situation never changes. Sigh.

Year 7 I'm guessing? My DD has just started year 8 but this time last year was horrendous. You do need to remember primary school kind of forces you to be friends with people as that's all there is and usually parents are the instigators of closer friendships. When they get to secondary school they're very much more independent with friendships and it is hard seeing old friends move on with new ones.

DD has a great group of friends now. Her best friend is a girl from her primary that she wasn't even friends with then! And the rest of them are all "new" friends from other schools.

What I will say is please try not to make it a big thing. I was guilty of the whole "did you see x today" "who have you been hanging out with" etc purely because I was pretty friendless at school and was massively projecting. DD isn't anything like me though and found her own way.

"I really do think these experiences can change your mindset in the long term for the better if can learn to identify a negative relationship and move away from it."

Yes yes, that is one thing it is really useful to try to teach a dc i think. At school though there can be a very difficult balance between not putting up with being treated badly, and ensuring that you don't end up without anyone to hang out with at break! Speaking up is sometimes the best thing to do, but does come with a risk of an overt 'break-up', which is why sometimes drifting off quietly to other friends may be more advisable.

In op's dd's case it's not so difficult as two of the other dc involved are at different schools, so that is something to be thankful for!

But either way, gently encouraging our dc not to stick with people who treat them badly is definitely the way to go. (While at the same time encouraging them not to overreact to the occasional one-off blip by a friend - can be a difficult line for the dc to draw, as all friends make the occasional mistake!)

Just been discussing this with my friend ...and one solution we have come up with that may help,it might not but she advised it herself as her girls are 14 and 15 and she went through similar..She said she was advised to do this too and it worked for her..So what she did was send her daughters to clubs they liked out of school,,gymnastics and swimming and guides.This helped because the focus was on making new friends out of school,It turned out that her girls were becoming less reliant on old friendships at school as they had other things to focus on and other friends not in the school enviroment ,The play dates with school friends sort of took a back seat and school became just school if you see what I mean.All the focus was on was the after school clubs and the friends she had made there ...her proper friends who shared joint interests ,who she fit in exactly with without any effort what so ever and she gradually replaced school friends with them...so her girls knew they had friends and were totally accepted out of the school arena. Might be something to think about OP...

Thanks again Sooner.

I think we’ll have to see about the 1st girl at school.
She has also made a couple of different friends and I cant tell whether she and dd will drift or stay close or start drifting.

Because I know the1st has had issues with friendships in the past I have asked my dd if she’s been seeing her and I know she looks out for her during the day but I think I’ll stop that now too and stop worrying about 1st girl so much.

The 3rd girl was definitely being cliquey as was the 1st so we’ll see what happens. I hope that when dd makes different friends she’ll realise that that isn’t acceptable but at the moment it better that than not having them as friends :(

As they left 1st girl said to 2nd ok so I’ll see you in a couple of weeks. My dd was there so she asked ooh but why 2 weeks and 2nd girl said bec she and 2nd girl are in different schools. My dd is also Ina. Different achool but it looked like she wanted to cry when the penny dropped.

They all have phones so she could have privately arranged that instead of yet again being excluding.

Sorry.. just remembering things and I can’t actually believe she was being like that.

Anyway.. thank you again for all your help and advice. I really do appreciate it xx

Cannotchange... sending you and your dd a big hug. Your reply made me well up.

Thankfully the group isn’t in the same school so it is less magnified than for your dd but it’s still hard for her.

Fingers crossed things improve for your dd. xx

Cats, thank you. I think that’s a real silver lining isn’t it. Really good way of looking at an experience to learn from. Thank you. Xx

Bookworm, compromise is what my dd does too. I hope your dd’s situation improves. The2nd girl had a dynamic with another girl that was similar and the other girl used to ‘guilt’ her into playing with her by saying things to her that weren’t true like you never play with me. That girl had the 2nd girls day planned out for her and would allow her to play with others on one day a week.
The 2nd girl found it difficult but Ian say anything. So it can be tricky. Fingers crossed it gets better for her soon.
Xx