How can I help my dd re friendships

[Losingtheplot01]

Ok.
Organised a birthday party for my daughter and her friends incl her 3 best friends
She is in senior school with one of them, I’ll call her 1st girl and 2 of them went to different schools and for ease I’ll call them 2nd and 3rd. The numbers are purely in reference to the order I’m mentioning them.
So as well as a party it was a sort of reunion as dd hadn’t seen 2nd and 3rd during the hols but had seen 1st a bit more because both our families were around more.

The girl she is still at school (1st girl) with is lovely when they are alone but when the other two are there, there is a very obvious pecking order. My dd feels this and tries to just get on and pretend it’s ok but every time it happens she is hurt. This happens often so in a group of 4 she’s often on the edge.
For example, I changed the timing to ensure that the 3rd one, could come and when she arrived the 1st one latched onto her and kept saying things like I want to be with you and the 2nd girl and basically no mention of my dd. I know she was excited to see them as they hadn’t over the hols but My dd was also super excited to see the 2nd and 3rd ones.
The 3rd girl then Followed suit and kept saying things like I want to sit you (1st girl) here, pointing to her left side and you (2nd girl) pointing to her right side.
I then asked what about dd and she just looked a bit sheepish? I said if you say that when there’s 4 of you how do you think the 4th one will feel? She said she didn’t mean it that way.
We had organised an activity and they had to pair up. 1st and 3rd girls basically said they wanted to be together with 2nd girl. There were some other girls at this too so dd made a :( face and agreed to be with them.
When she went with the other group I asked the girls as I’ve known them a while, to please try and include her as she does get hurt by it and as it’s her birthday it would be nice if they included her.
The 2nd one is the most relaxed and equal with everyone so she said don’t worry we will. She makes sure my daughter isn’t excluded but is sometimes swept up by the other two.
My daughter adores these girls but I sometimes wish she’d just stop accepting being treated this way.

My oh said I shouldn’t have said anything and that we need to let dd work things out but I was getting quite upset watching her be pushed out of the group and it came out.

I think I was upset as I see it time and time again.
DD is friendly with everyone and we’ll liked and when she met the 2nd girl they clicked. 2nd girl gets on with lots of people so dd isn’t demanding of her time but they both then made friends with 1st and 3rd girl and have been close for a few years.

I don’t know how to help my dd. This sort of thing really has chipped away at her confidence but I don’t know if I’m over reacting or being unreasonable. I experienced the same at school and still do now so find the
Whole friendship thing tricky to navigate.
My dd suffers with anxiety but does try and get on with things but I wish she would just say no that this isn’t acceptable. And that she deserves better.

I know I shouldn’t out my issues on my dd but because I have experienced the same i find it hard to not.

I hope I don’t sound unhinged or too mad. I really am struggling with this and feel like I accepted this for far too long in my youth and even as an adult and have mental health issues and depression and a very deep rooted lack of self worth/esteem and think this sort of thing played a big part in that and I would dearly love to avoid my dd following in my footsteps

I hope this makes sense. I just want to help my dd be happy and confident and to not accept being anyone’s back up friend. Or should I just leave her alone to deal with things herself? I should add this has been going on for a while and she is 12

Thank you in advance

So much good advice on this thread - including from you op! I do think a silver lining about encountering this kind of friend dynamic early on in life is that it can make you better able to spot it later on. Provided you are then equipped to deal with it, (whether by moving swiftly on the from excluders, politely pointing it out to them, or whatever works for you) that can be really helpful!
Your dd sounds very clued up and capable, and your ds also sounds very wise for age 9/10! They're obviously lucky to have you looking out for them.
Hope all continues well, and yes definitely encourage dd to maintain the 2nd girl friendship one on one - while also encouraging dd to branch out at school, join some clubs and societies to keep meeting new people and develop her interests.

Thank you again Sooner. Your advice has really helped.

And yes, amazing advice on this thread.

Hope the children also going through friendship issues are doing ok and have found this thread as helpful as I have.

Lots of love to everyone who replied and everyone reading xx

Out of interest OP is number 1 (the one still at your daugher’s school) a first born or not and where do the others fit in within their siblings?

I think sibling order can make a difference to how friendship group dynamics can develop. Things eventually even out over time but it can explain why some children interact in a certain way to begin with. Friendships are also cyclical and one that might not be ideal at the moment could change in the future too and become healthy again.

Nothing is written in stone at this age!

Sounds like your daughter is being self aware, mature and reflective. These are qualities which will hold her in good stead in the future and you’re doing a great job guiding and supporting her!

Hi Cheeseandpickle

Interesting question. I also think maybe it’s a factor.

1st girl is at same school as dd and is the second of two sisters. 3rd is at a different achool and the same.
2nd girl is older of 2 sisters and my dd is the older with a younger brother

Xx

There have been some really interesting and helpful things said on this thread: can I add that this sort of bullying (because it is bullying) can, as you describe, damage a child's self-esteem, so anything you can do to build that up, and help the child understand that they do not have to accept being picked up and put down on the whim of others, is a good thing.

The Childline website (www.childline.org.uk) is a really good resource for both children and for parents, its informative and it can help with ideas and strategies: do take a look!

Thank you Theoscargoesto

I’ll have a look at that link and i agree that it is low level bullying which can have a long lasting effect.

It’s such a relief to know that I’m not being an over protective parent for no reason. If I’m honest I’ve noticed it before too and although it was rotten to see, dd was ok with it so I never wanted to ‘rock the boat’. But now I wonder if I should have done some gentle coaching, as
Sooner suggested, years ago but as I explained I think I was also grateful tht she had friends and maybe that it was normal, based on my experience that that’s just how friendships work. I do feel I have let her down in that respect.

Thankfully though she doesn’t seem ok with it anymore. It was magnified at her party and maybe that was a good thing as she is hopefully realising that she deserves better. Onwards and upwards as they say.

Your reply has helped lots too so thankyou xx

My sentence that starts with ‘thankfully though’ sounds a bit weird but hope it makes sense. I think it is good she isn’t okay with it anymore. What a difference a week makes. xx

What an interesting thread! My kids had this a bit at school too but are now popular adults with lots of friends. It definitely is very common behaviour, especially at that age but I think pp is right about it going on in adulthood too. It's always something that has made me angry to watch - your child's friend being a disloyal .... . I find it really annoying that some of the most horrible people are the most sought after company, kids and adults.

Ah that’s interesting re 1st and 3rd both being second born and your DD and 2nd friend being the eldest, I was thinking it might have been that way round! My eldest has been through similar experiences as your DD. All fine now but was rocky at times with some friendships. Happened to me too at same age, eventually was able to figure out how to deal with it all myself. Your DD will too, the self awareness and reflections she’s going through are valuable and she’ll realise it’s more about them than about her. Might be worth pointing it out to her subtly that 1st friend has most likely had to grow up having to assert herself at home with her sibling and if she doesn’t, she misses out so that’s engrained in her and she’s probably drawn to similar personalities at this age and it’s not personal. I know it doesn’t apply to everyone but often when there is a dynamic issue in friendships I find the sibling order element can be a factor.

f/o, on whether dc and adults who behave unpleasantly are the most sought after company, it is an interesting phenomenon! Some sought after people are really lovely to others - others less so!

It is sometimes hard to see where those people's 'social power' comes from - I think it's partly to do with being able to make their presence felt - not necessarily 'loud', but at least entertaining. Sometimes with dc (and possibly adults!) it can seem to be to do with looks, fashionable clothes/make up, or skill at sport, - but I'm not sure that's the real reason because there's always someone else with those same attributes who doesn't enjoy that 'social success'.

I think there may be something 'innate' about a person's social status, which sounds depressing but may be quite a helpful realisation! If you don't have it, don't waste time and self-esteem trying to be part of a cool gang, or clinging to the edges of one - seek out other individuals and build those friendships. Without being conscious of doing it deliberately, I think many adults do tend to concentrate on their one to one/two friendships rather than groups - possibly because they've discovered that groups (which are hard to avoid at school) don't really work for them.

I think you could be right Sooner. It fascinates me though how some people seem to break every social rule and get away with it and others would just be ditched immediately. Very true that it's hard to see where "social power" comes from.

EffedOff, can I called you that ? Feels weird writing the F word to address someone but dunno why.
Glad your dd sorted it out and agree... I’m also fascinated by the people I’ve had the pleasure to meet that are so fake but do it with such conscience that it draws people to them. I have encountered that dynamic with men as well as women and in the workplace as well as elsewhere.
One chap springs to mind and he used to criticise our manager behind his back but was his best friend out loud and over familiar and generally OTT and he did surprisingly well at work and was intern promoted when others including me who were better at the kid we all did, weren’t.

I think it’s the perception of confidence and I used to waiver between wow to be like that and thank f^*k I’m not like that.

When dd was younger she was as quiet and thoughtful as she is now but definitely less assertive and even though she isn’t that much now she is more so that she was . Anyway, she would listen to the bossy types at school who would shout at everyone thatbthey had to ask to join in with games where they were the leader. So she did and invariably they said no which used to make her so so say. The ones who said no were then the ones she wanted to be friends with.. as if she was accepted by them then the others would like her.
I kept trying to tell her to stop chasing them as she was giving them the power to say no but I don’t think she understood.
By all accounts this happened to others too but they were sometimes included and then felt grateful only to be dropped again.

As you say both fascinating and also heartbreaking.

Cheeseandpickle, as soon as you asked whether they were oldest or not in their families my brain started ticking. I think all the kids dd has had issues with are all 2nd children.

Incidentally, a few years ago before dd and 1st girl we’re good friends dd has to ask her one time to join in and. 1st girl said No. for whatever reason dd toodnher she was mean and didn’t need her and turned and walked off. The 1st girl then came after her and apologised and said of course she could going and that she hadn’t meant to be mean

Dd walsh around at school with a big smile as she generally enjoys being there. When things like this happen the smile gets bigger so I think she sub conciously doesn’t want to cry or have a melt down so the smile grows. I think now sometimes when the smile is there it’s hiding the fact she’s uncomfortable. Unfortunately when I tried to speak with the teachers about her struggling in the playground they would observe and say yes she’s by herself but she’s happy.

I think she’s always internalised things and doesn’t speak up and doesn’t want to ask the teachers for help outside of the classroom and at juniors I always had to deal with the odd thing that came up as she didn’t feel comfortable in that environment to do so.

Sooner, do you think it is something to do with being introverted that some kids just aren’t cut out for big groups and maybe children like adults just need a couple of good friends rather than lots of friends?

I watch the Ken Robinson Ted talk on kids and creativity and it is fab, Highly recommend it. And he talks about that a bit.

Also the Bremen brown thing on Netflix and the book Quiet all allude to the fact that introverts aren’t appreciated in society and that schools are failing them.

In dd junior school she was often hearing messages about kindness and fairness but time and time again she was overlooked for the less kind loud girls as the school felt they were more confident or whatever so the dynamic is maybe innate but the quieter kids seem beaten down by the system and the louder kids get boosted with main parts and lead roles in the classsroom etc.

I had a bit of an email exchange where I. Stated that in society introverts are as important as extroverts and that not all kids or people want to be leaders. This was after dd being promised something and not getting it and being devastatated and the reason was they wanted her to show more leadership. The assessment was In a group and she being more thoughtful before answering was seen as being less confident because she wasn’t shouting the answers out.
Yes had this convo with the head before seeing the Brene brown talk, the Ken Robinson ted talk and listening to quiet and things sort of fell into place.

Interestingly dd has started senior school on a different note and where what happened at her party would have maybe devastated her in junior school, she has actually started to accept that people can be a bit unthinking and that it isntbti do with her.
She has also spoken to teachers and staff more easily and she is like a different person so looking back I think it was the junior school that somehow moulded her in a way that she was stuck in there.

I was devastated and was waiting for her to be very upset and didn’t know how to handle things so posted on here and I’m so so pleased I did.

I think I was also a bit guilty of. It recognising some of the stuff that was going on at junior school and used to say things like you need to speak up or tell people how you feel.

But dd is an introvert and a lovely one and with all the help and advice on here I think I can help her with these knocks as we both are starting to realise it’s not her fault. It happens and it’s ok as maybe it’s better to find the right people and be self reliant rather than stuck with people who stick with you on their terms.
Dd isn’t perfect but I’m starting to realise she’s a gem actually and she just needs to shine in her own way. And based on the responses on here, I think she will find her own way with help and support from me and that she doesn’t have to end up like I am which is such a relief and like a huge grey cloud has wafted away.

Thanks again for your replies. You’re all amazing cx

Terrible typos... I meant do it with such CONFIDENCE not conscious up there

Loads more ... so sorry

"Sooner, do you think it is something to do with being introverted that some kids just aren’t cut out for big groups"

That's interesting - I'm not sure - I think some introverts do actually have good "groupie skills", but it's more a question of needing down time to refresh. But perhaps there is a correlation!

Yes I think schools are quite good at talking about kindness and fairness - but weirdly, those are not necessarily the characteristics that lead to 'group success.' Being entertaining, wit, looks, fashionable clothes etc sometimes seem to determine whether you have a strong position in a group - but really I think it's often a 'je ne sais quoi' which is impossible to define or get if you don't have it! (May be repeating myself here.) That's not a problem as long as you adapt by focusing on individual friendships instead rather than trying to be in the centre of a group.

Thanks again Sooner xx

I think I was wondering in a ‘world’ where kids are so socialised with playdates and group things from a young age, that maybe for some children, as with some adults, and possibly for the introverts among us that that may be too much.

I was never into the big social side of things so maybe did less than other new mums. I’d lost a lot of blood and had an emergency section after 17 hours labour with dd and it took
Me a Long while to get over it. So maybe because I’m like that it’s not surprising that dd might be. And that it’s ok.
It’s probably a case of nature and nurture in our case but maybe if I had been more outgoing she might have been. Or maybe she wouldn’t. I guess I just have to stop beating myself up
Over the things I could have done better and just support who she is now and recognise that she’s fine as she is and help her realise that.
Thanks again x