Aibu..... I can't punish my son... Help!

[Cockerpooowner]

Hi i need advice please before my marriage and family completely break down.
My eldest child is 8. He is a good boy mostly when out of the house , kind, well mannered to others, a nice friend etc, but when he is at home he is sometimes quite bossy with us, argues back, back chats, has an attitude, involves himself with adult conversations, that type of thing. This is if we ask him to do something /not to do something /or say he can't do something.
My husband hates my sons attitude and they don't have a very good relationship. They argue a lot and then he punsines our son by sending him to his room, or not allowing him on the x box for a while. My son obviously gets very upset at the time.
This breaks my heart and I just want to either let him off and talk it through instead, or have a short punishment rather than it lasting a few days. I don't like it when there is a bad atmosphere in the house. My husband and I then end up arguing over it.
Now I know that this is completely wrong of me and I should be backing up my husband. I just don't like my son thinking badly of me and I want him to have good childhood memories, not memories of us punishing him. I know this is rediculous, i know that he won't have respect for me especially when he's older, but i just can't seem to change.
When I was a child I was very well behaved and only got told off maybe once or twice my whole childhood and I can remember it vividly and how upset I was.
How can I be a better parent? I'm happy to hear all opinions, thanks

My feeling reading that was that your son is being punished far too harshly for pretty standard stuff that can usually be resolved with talking, explaining and using consistent boundaries. The thought of a child being punished for days for joining in an adult conversation makes me very sad for him. Along with the fact that he argues with the kid and hasn’t got a good relationship with him... your husband sounds like a bully and I don’t blame you for wanting to make your son feel better. I wouldn’t put up with it.

Thanks for your comments.

I didn't say he gets punished for joining in adult conversations. I was just describing the type of child he is. He's 8 but thinks he'd 18 type of thing.
My husband does not punish him regularly, weeks can go by where everything is fine. But..... They don't do anything together at all. I do everything with them. That is something my husband really needs to address as I think that is contributing to their poor relationship. We go on days out all together but i cant remember the last time they did anything alone.

Cockerpooowner

Your DH doesn’t sound like hardcore authoritarian, but perhaps he is leaning a bit towards that.

Basically disciplining a child without first establishing a relationship where you are responsive to their needs and feelings can lead to an authoritative relationship where a child results in low self esteem.

You are right in identifying that your son needs his father to spend more time with him so that he can take him being firm seriously. That way he will look up to his dad and not want to disappoint him and your DH won’t have to go a bit over the top to be taken seriously.

You on the other hand identify that your child needs someone responding to their feelings and basic needs and taking it upon himself to be the safe haven for your child so he doesn’t feel like he will lose his only responsive parent..

While I can’t blame you but that’s definately being reactive to ur DH. You need to be proactive and address both your parenting style.

It’s no good to be a disciplinarian without empathy.. just like it’s no good to be permissive without boundaries.

He needs to have two balanced parents, not two parents over compensating from each other.

You both mean well but if the empathy and discipline isn’t coming from the same parent or are conflicting with each other, the child will automatically feel worse and feel at
Attacked personally.. instead of actually learning about rules.

Errr... I don't think you have to 'back up your husband' if your husband is making off the cuff unilateral decisions about how to discipline your children. No way. He absolutely shouldn't dish out 'punishments' without you both agreeing on whether they are appropriate. Perhaps I am an outlier here, but there's no way you owe any kind of allegiance or loyalty to your husband just because he's your husband. What you think and feel matters too. 'Punishments' that last for an inordinately long time, disproportionate to the perceived wrong-doing are totally ineffective and undermine both relationships and parental authority. Stick to your guns.

Does your DH also praise DS when he does something good? DS may partly be seeing bad behaviour as a way of getting dad’s attention - even negative attention can feel better than not feeling noticed for some children in some situations. Reinforcing DS’s good behaviour and perhaps even finding an activity they can do together that is only for father and son might help to redress the balance.

Your husband needs to forge a good relationship with his son. My husband often takes our 8 year old off to do 'boys stuff' and I love this as I've always wanted all our children to have equally good relationships with us both. Having said that I too make a point of spending one on one time with our older ones/teens to as I am all for discipline but believe it needs to be relational.

I would prefer to say discipline than punishment, I wonder if you feel more upset because you feel 'sorry' for him that he doesn't really have this with his Dad and this makes you sad so you pull in the opposite direction if that makes sense.

I do believe it's important to show a united front of possible but not at the expense of the child, I think you really need to have an open conversation as adults. Maybe DH feels like you've always taken on the main carer role and he feels pushed out in some way or he's a bit lazy but either way he needs to connect with him now to lay the foundations for the future.

You sound like a nice mum

What sort of thing is your DS doing that your H think merit punishment lasting for days? That's really the key question.

I also get a sense that you both view your DS as 'the bad child' and your DD as 'the good child'. And yes, he will pick up on this and act out. It's incredibly toxic and you both need to stop it. Some counselling, a parenting course for you both or maybe family therapy would be a good idea before the damage goes too far.

I disagree that parents should always back each other up. When one is being manifestly unreasonable, they should be challenged, not pandered to.

For all the whining about how you must hurt and humiliate children (because that's what 'punishment' is) or they will turn into monsters, it's generally better to use reason and to bear in mind that your child is not your property and that you are not entitled to be worshipped or 'respected' just because you brought them into the world. If your H has set himself up as the Lord and Master and can't interact with your son other than to put him down or issue orders, it's your H that's the prick, and the last thing you should do is back him up.
Tell him he needs to be a positive role model for your son; he needs to spend time with him and be nice to him. If he won't agree and starts insisting that you obey and respect him as Head of the Household then you need to throw the fucker out, before your DS gets big enough to give him the punch in the face he will probably end up deserving, if he continues to be a bully.

I also think that your dh needs to have a better relationship with ds.

I don’t punish my children and neither does dh.
We’re not soft people raising entitled brats.
You can set boundaries in other ways. What works for us is explaining why certain rules are there and telling them off if they need to be. It’s dealt with there and then and then everyone gets on with their life.
I also recommend the ahaparenting site.

it's purely because my husband does all the punishments and discipline and I don't. Then I feel sorry for my husband because then it's like hes the bad guy and I'm the good guy.

And that is very unfair on your husband.you both need to discipline consistently. When he gets to teen it will be 100xworse if you don’t sort this now. Kids constantly push boundaries, that’s just natural, but it’s very wrong if there is only one peron enforcing the rules.
You need to work together.

@Cockerpooowner, I can't remember it exactly, but I watched a documentary year ago about young men that had been in and out of prison since they were young teens, and after much help had turned their lives around to go straight in their mid/late 20s.

What did stick with me was when they were asked what they thought contributed to going off the rails.

Every single one of them said (in one way or another) that they just wanted someone to love them enough and to care for them enough to say 'no' and to stop them.

That's always stuck with me.

You're not meant to be your son's best friend; you are his parent and you're meant to teach him right from wrong.

*years ago

Sit down without the kids and discuss what appropriate punishments are, how lng to remove console etc. Include your daughter in this list even if she's well behaved write what you would do eg remove tablet toy or whatever so his not singled out. Then once written down and agreed you sit the kids down tell them the rules are if you back chat once you get a warning second time you loose it for few hours or a day but if you still carry on will be 2 days. Set the maximum as a week. But say if you have a good day and it's been removed for a week you get it back a day earlier. Set rules you agree on and stick to them then he will know you mean business. Your not there to be liked your his mum not a friend.

Your ds sounds like my dn. Argumentative, likes to stand their ground, won’t do something if they can’t see the actual point of it, gets involved in adult conversation. Dns parents don’t punish either. They’ll come down on him like a tonne of bricks sometimes but mostly guide him.
We just accept that’s part of his character and laugh and say that he’s not very good at being a kid but will be a fab adult.
Accept your ds for who he is and both of you should work with him not against him.

I think you have to be very careful with punishing for 'backchatting'. How will children learn to stand up for themselves if they are never allowed to stand their ground? Rudeness is never acceptable, but disagreement is something that needs sensible handling. I'm very far from advocating that you should 'negotiate' with your child, but there is nothing wrong with listening rather than going straight to 'No' and 'Because I say so'.

Do please look up the difference between authoritative and authoritarian parenting. My late H never learned it. His failure to understand destroyed his relationship with our (very well behaved trouble free) DDs.

I don't thing long punishments of several days are the right way to go with an 8 year old. Taking technology away for several days is quite a severe punishment for fairly normal issues of family life. So much of life is tied up with technology these days he will feel harshly treated. Any discipline at this age should be short and followed by assurances of love and support. When you think that 'time out' type punishments for children not that much younger ...say aged 5 ...are a minute per age, punishments of several days could make a child feel very down and damage self esteem ...especially if comparisons are made with near 'perfect' younger daughter. I'm not suggesting he should be treated like a really young child with 8 minute time outs but several days punishments are going to the other extreme. I feel very sorry for a child of that age being in school all day and anticipating another evening of being punished for a 'crime' maybe committed a couple of days ago. Your husband needs to develop a more balanced relationship with his son so that the comparison with daughter is less stark.

I also feel that you should hesitate before always backing your husband. Surely you don't agree with his decision every time? You are equally your child's parent and are equally responsible for decisions concerning him. Most parents have had disagreements at some point about how they discipline their kids. It seems here that your husband's opinions take precedence. It may not be that your son will disrespect you as the 'soft' parent ...he may well look back and value your support. Especially if in doing so you encourage your husband in a more moderate stance on discipline. Good luck op.

I had a very opposing view to my ex when the DC were small, he would discipline them very sternly. But would also threaten things he couldn't carry out, like telling them they would go to the naughty boys home etc which of course didn't exist. I remember one time when my son was about 2, we were on holiday with my parents and eating dinner in a holiday camp restaurant. My son was bored and refused to eat, so DH grabbed him and marched him back to the chalet, my DS somehow managed to come back to the restaurant by himself and was seated eating his pudding when his furious father returned. He would also smack them, which I only found out years later when we split up. I played bridge a couple of evenings a week with my mum and the DC said their memories of their dad were him getting angry and shouting at them all the time, they hated it if I went out and they were left with him

I had a different approach to discipline, my DC although not always angels, were not wilfully naughty, it was things like accidentally dropping a glass or being over tired that would prompt their dad to react.

Another example when my DS was 16, I had a call at work from his brother saying their dad had kicked him out for borrowing his trainers without asking! That was the turning point for me and one of the many reasons we are not together anymore

Further down the line, and in their twenties, I have a good relationship with all my DC and only one of them sees there father. Its just a different parenting style, my Ex grew up being hit by a broom and chased upstairs when he was a child, I grew up with my parents talking to me and making me see reason in another way. My ex was one of 5 DC though, and his parents both worked long hours so I think they were stressed and struggling, although not an excuse to chase your children up the stairs with a broom.

Sorry gone off on a tangent here, im just saying I agree with your parenting style Op, my DC have all turned out calm, well mannered adults, but my son said to me recently, we are what we are today mum, because of you, just you. My other son who sees his dad still got in to a discussion with his father when his dad said, "I never hit my kids" - to which my son replied, "but dad you hit me"

Every single one of them said (in one way or another) that they just wanted someone to love them enough and to care for them enough to say 'no' and to stop them.

You can set boundaries and stop behaviour without punishment.

I have never imposed a punishment on my children.

There has been bad behaviour and we have taken it seriously. Blunt direct talk, or discussions about thought, kindness and common sense.

They work hard at school , get compliments fir behaviour and are spontaneously kind and helpful.

People are assuming the problem is your ds even though you've said when out of the house he's good, kind, well mannered to others, a nice friend. It could be your dh who is the dysfunctional one and it's that which has caused their very poor relationship. What about family counselling? I don't think things are going to improve with you trying to be more like your dh.

Is everything about how wrong you are because you are easy on him? Never about maybe he is too harsh?
Id say a "few days" punishment for stuff like backchat is very harsh, and shorter punishments are perfectly appropriate.
Dont let a man bully you into thinking youre a worse parent. Some men just want to take their own childhood out on their kids

I think if your son is well behaved when he’s out of the house, and the main difficulty is how your husband perceives his behaviour, then maybe it’s actually your husband who needs to learn some (self-)discipline.

Children are not yet emotionally mature and it’s the job of their parents to help them become mature. It sounds like your husband isn’t doing that because he’s arguing and issuing unrealistic punishments. I agree that children need boundaries, but if their parents aren’t mature enough to set boundaries responsibly, then no amount of punishment will be an effective substitute.

I can't see anything in the the op that most dc don't do?

I like back chat, a little is healthy. He should be commended for speaking out against a strict unreasonable dad.

Work with that spirit and chanel it.
Teach there is a time to stand up for yourself and a time to control yourself.

Punishing a child for days over back chat sounds wildy out of proportion to me. And I'm glad your son isn't taking it

I think it is you constantly giving in and not disciplining him which is the problem - he doesn't then know what is and isn't acceptable because you are teaching that being arsey, arguing, not doing what asked is how things are done. Does he tidy up after himself, clear or set the dinner table, do anything except what he feels like??
Imv he will also have difficulties with respect for you. Because you are his simpering appeaser.
Of course he is good away from the house - he is given boundaries there and has respect for the giver.
As a teen I predict he will have some respect for his DF and none for you.