To think I can feel empowered without needing to strip to my (sexy) underwear

[fandabbyfannyflutters]

Just saw something on twitter saying all women should have a boudoir photo shoot as it's so empowering. Fine if you want to do that. Cue also the usual comments from men 'phwoar if only I was 30 years younger/was single' etc etc
Am I being wildly out order to point out well no actually I don't need to do that to feel empowered?

I did one of these photoshoots, and absolutely loved it. It was done by an all female team - studio owner, photographer, makeup, hair - all female. No men involved. I did it for myself, not my DP.

I am middle aged and overweight, and the photos are gorgeous. Really tastefully done. Not hiding the reality of my body after children, but making the most of it. No cringe involved, no 80s perm.

I don't know about feeling empowered, but it did make me feel good about myself and put a spring back in my step. No pictures were nude, some were sexy, some are not, but are just beautiful photos. For the first time in years I felt seen.

It was absolutely the right thing for me at the time, but I accept not for everyone. Each to their own and all that.

Hmmm ..... lots of harsh, categoric judgement of other women's choices and telling other women what their problem must be if they feel different..... doesn't feel very empowering.

I appreciate how tortured and exploited women's bodies and body images have been over centuries. I think one of the consequences of this is that enjoying being desired, or our own physical beauty (and I mean that in the most diverse sense of the word) has become anti-feminist in itself.....

I agree that hanging your entire self esteem on your physicality is not a sign of health or liberation or empowerment. However, I also think fully embracing our physicality can indicate a lack of fear and a rejection of body shaming that can be empowering for some.

For example, I would never have considered such a photo shoot for most of my life- I would have had numerous reasons to justify this, including saying that my body was 'just' a body - therefore a superficial thing not to be made a fuss of. I would have cited my intellectual and career achievements as the things that mattered. However, beneath this was a profound disconnect from my physicality as a woman - caused by my fear of a drunken father, and being with a man who subtlety body shamed me for 20 years. I was significantly overweight for the same deep reasons - to hide and reject those parts of myself. Part of me - an important part - was switched off and hidden.

After three years of deep therapy, I have been liberated from those fearful and rejecting experiences to become far more comfortable within my own body and sexualness as a woman.

I would now consider a photo shoot like this, and it would absolutely be a statement of liberation and self acceptance and a lack of fear (and even pleasure) in being seen. Not anything about being cowed or duped by patriarchy.

To dismiss any woman who would do this as disempowered is to do exactly what we feminists claim to abhor.

*we feminists’

If boudoir shoots were empowering then we’d all be wearing lingerie to job interviews.

Tyro I think I 💙 you!

Eowyn I really like how you've described your shoot too and it's interesting that you say your not sure that it made you feel empowered.

What I am very, very grateful uncomfortable with is a scenario in which a woman or girl feels their entire worth is wrapped up in their appearance, specifically with as few clothes on as possible. Take Little Mix as an example. Clearly pretty girls singing talent questionable who only ever seem to be dressing and dancing "sexily" with lyrics that are often very obviously about sex. With no other way of expressing themselves. You cannot tell me they are doing this for themselves and to feel strong? And the sad thing is who knows what other things they excel at and what incredible skills they may have? Unfortunately sex still sells. And I guess they make a shit tonne of cash from it but at what price?

I feel very sad about it god I'm old.

Vulcan

enjoying being desired, or our own physical beauty (and I mean that in the most diverse sense of the word) has become anti-feminist in itself.....

I see what you're getting at. I think this is because the options we have for "feeling as though we're being desired" are constrained and shaped by the likelihood of men expressing desire in response to each option. But this only works one way round.

Men have greater freedom in terms of their ability to feel desired from time to time - because they're in a position of power over us on a class level there's a pressure on us as a class to provide a wide range of accommodations for this need.

The very fact that they have the power to drive the evolution of our available options is fundamental to ongoing maintenance of the whole sexism/patriarchy/male-dominance thing. If they lose that power, patriarchy collapses, basically.

Part of the reason they have that power is the reality of being a sexually dimorphic species.

Part of the reason they have that power is that we've spent several millennia evolving societies around the assumption that their possession of power is normal and inevitable and benign.

Part of the reason they have that power is that we keep letting them assert it. Every time we conform to their idea of what we ought to be or do or think, we are giving them power.

And we all know damned well they think we ought to spend a bit more time putting on sexual displays for their benefit.

It's antifeminist to tie your brain in knots so that you end up conforming to what men want. It will continue to be antifeminist to conform to what men want, until men start wanting what's best for all of humanity, not just their own half.

It's also antifeminist to reject the value of critical analysis and blithely accept the pressure men have placed (and continue to place) on the evolution of our working definition of feminism. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader, to connect that to the shifting of the definition of "feminism" away from "women's liberation from male oppression" towards "equality, inclusion, and absolutely no criticising of any woman's choices ever (including your own)."

BraveGoldie I'm glad therapy has helped you and you've been able to heal a lot of damage. You've empowered yourself through your therapeutic journey. If you want to have a photoshoot done, so you've got a visual reminder of the body you've made your peace with to remind you how far you've come, that's great. But the photoshoot itself wouldn't be empowering you, would it? It would simply stand as a testament to the fact that you are already empowered.

And if it's not the actual photoshoot itself that's doing the empowering of a woman, then we haven't got "empowerment" as an option to offset the damaging conforming-to-the-male-gaze angle of the whole thing. The photoshoot thus represents a net loss on the dismantling-oppression/empowering-women front.

Agree with much of what you say, @Tyrotoxicity .

I am certainly not saying that we must never criticize any woman for anything - but I would prefer we not take a policing/ condemning role towards large swathes of women or activities women may choose to do. Seems like that is taking over an oppressive role rather than fighting against it.

And I feel if we do not allow ourselves ever to be or do anything that some other group (in this case men) think we should, then we are allowing ourselves to be just as dictated to by others' desires as if we were confirming to them. A lesser of two evils, but still an evil in my opinion...

We are products of a patriarchal society, regardless. rejecting our bodies and healthy sexual instincts to be attractive is both a product of this, as much as it is a protest against this. It is not the same as true liberation.

And yes the photo shoot would in some ways be a symbol of my empowerment but it would also be empowering in itself - as any act of protest and rejection of fear is. It would take courage for me to achieve and in achieving it, I would be further empowered. It would be a step that opened up new steps. Therapy is just the first step to empowerment - acting - in real life is where power is exercised and built on. For me, anyway.

BraveGoldie

I'm not going to get into an argument about the whys and wherefores of people feeling they're being policed. I think we're in broad agreement, and that's enough for me for now.

I'm also certain that you and I are using a very different definition of "empowerment" to that commonly understood by the mainstream, the majority, the media, whatever.

The label "empowerment" has been attached to antifeminist behaviours, and this association has been reinforced so many times in our presence, that we are instinctively triggered into a more defensive position when the word "empowerment" is used. Net result: though we are generally mindful of the need not to be unhelpfully antagonistic, sometimes a bit of scathing ire slips through. We're only human, after all.

That ire isn't actually directed at you. You're picking up on it because you use the word empowerment too - but you're using it to refer to a process that is a net positive on the liberation front. You're doing grand.

Just bear in mind that there are two groups involved in the perversion of the word "empowerment," and if you're gently reminding one of them to be mindful, while keeping utterly silent to the other group, you're not going to see the change you want to see.

If it’a for you go for it, if it’s not there shouldn’t be any expectation or pressure to do anything similar.

Ideally everyone would have good body confidence, but even if they do it doesn’t mean they should feel the need to show it off etc.

My ex was (and is) very body confident despite not having a figure thats traditionally considered ‘ideal’. He shows his off all the time, sometimes he gets negative comments but he doesn’t care as he does love himself and the way his body looks. When he does it, it isn’t his body that makes him look good, it’s his confidence.

If I want a reminder of what I look like I just look in the mirror. It's not very empowering but it's accurate.

I don't think you ever see anything anywhere about what MEN need to do to feel empowered do you?

That's depressing

And it's depressing that for women it's taking our kit off.

Imagine men doing this? A boudoir shoot in skimpy pants, props, soft focus and soft porn gaze at the camera. I feel that it's as ridiculous for a woman to do it. Empowered my butt. Empowered is when I'm confident to speak for myself, make decisions and have autonomy. It sounds like the answer to a different question, sexual freedom maybe? In which case why not -each to their own.

@Tyrotoxicity - Agree. The other group isn't reading this though. Which is why my tendency is to play devil's advocate.

Don't worry - I do not remain silent. I have been a co-founding trustee of two women's charities- one that educates girls in the developing world and funds women's micro investment in their own businesses, another that develops leadership skills in young women... and I am author of three books of re-written fairytales with brave strong girl characters in them. I gave a speech at my wedding day, contrary to tradition, saying to everybody gathered, that I was speaking because "no woman should ever be expected to be silent"......and I chucked said husband out and ended the marriage after 16 years, 2 days after I found out he had been unfaithful (with a girl 18 years our junior.... yawn)

And if this sounds like a boast then that is me consciously undermining the patriarchal expectations for female modesty! 🤣

..... so no, I don't let the world have its way, generally! 😁

I feel a little bit empowered by my giant cotton knickers and mismatched bras. I don't want to be photographed in them though...

I find those photo shoots utterly cringe

Me too. The previous owners of our house, when we viewed it, had various pictures of the woman draped on a tiger print rug in varying poses, looking meaningfully into the distance.

I didn't know where to look tbh.

What tyro said good n proper

I'm properly laughing to myself at the thought of me suggesting a boudoir shot to male friends, to make them feel empowered. Can you imagine??!

I think people have different views on this. I read an article where Margaret Atwood described working in a strip club as potentially being ‘empowering’.

Personally, I just don’t get how it is empowering to strip for money. However I respect other people’s rights to have a different perspective.

Ps, I am not suggesting in any way that a boudoir shoot is akin to working in a strip club!

The other group isn't reading this though

Mm, but the lurkers are. They're reading, and learning, and working out their own position.

There are a lot of women who still haven't clocked the "empowerment" label for what it is and how it functions to maintain the sex-axis of oppression. A majority, I'd wager. And they're in need of a way to resolve the discomfort we all feel when supposedly-empowering stealth-antifeminist behaviour leaves us internally conflicted.

To open a path for this majority of women to spot the "empowerment" lie for themselves, we have to be able to talk about the lie, to analyse it, to persist in the analysis in the face of criticism - and we have to do this in a way that models the underlying message that critical analysis is a good and necessary thing, so that we're all better able to spot the next stealth-antifeminist lie coming.

Which means we have to tread a fine line between highlighting how the lie functions, allowing women the opportunity to see how it functions for them personally, and not getting anyone's back up lest they disengage.

We're going to fall off that line from time to time, but if we can all collectively resist the urge to get into a fight over the fact that we're using the same word to describe two similar and interlinked things that have wildly opposing consequences for women-as-a-class, and keep our focus on walking that line - then we are empowering the lurkers to empower themselves, and keeping ourselves powered up and doing feminism at the same time.

It's win-win, for women-as-a-class.

And if this sounds like a boast then that is me consciously undermining the patriarchal expectations for female modesty!

We're conditioned to see it as a boast and therefore bad, but it's actually empowering women, by reminding us that other women are still putting a lot of effort into doing their bit and thus encouraging us not to let the side down. So it gets a thumbs-up from me!

I've never done one of those photoshoots, and neither would I want to, but I think it's interesting that so many people here have assumed that the point of doing one is 'tits out for the lads' or 'doing photos that men like' and not 'some nice pictures to keep to yourself'.

I think for some people, it probably does feel empowering, in certain ways. For others, it absolutely won't. It's ridiculous to say 'every woman should do one' - I mean, obviously that's a pile of drivel. But I don't think it's helpful to tell women they shouldn't do them, either.

The only person I know who has done one has kept the pictures for herself, had them taken by a female photographer and did it to help address some major body image issues that she had. It was absolutely empowering for her and a big part of her learning to love her body. The only people she's shown the pictures to are female friends.

It's ridiculous to say 'every woman should do one' - I mean, obviously that's a pile of drivel. But I don't think it's helpful to tell women they shouldn't do them, either.

Agreed wholeheartedly on both counts.

I just think we have a collective responsibility to effectively prompt one another to apply a bit of effort to the task of consciously reconciling these two true statements. It would mean we all waste a bit less of our time on fruitless bickering. Which would free up a bit more time for the two pillars of feministing - liberation of the self, and liberation of the class.

Hm. That's not a bad bar to set for determining whether a given behaviour is feminist, is it? It needs to be genuinely having a positive effect on both pillars.

This thread is empowering me as we speak, because I now have a really short and simple mantra I can use to easily classify things as feminist or antifeminist. I feel inoculated against future antifeminist derails in my own brain. Excellent. Thanks all!

I’m not sure anyone’s saying you’re shouldn’t do it. They are taking issue with the contention that doing it is empowering. Correctly.

I'd go a step further and wonder why there is such an increase in women doing "figure" competitions ie bodybuilding and claiming it's empowering. Sure, make your body look great. Work out hard, eat well, and you do look awesome in day to day life. Wear a bikini on stage too if you feel up to it.

But virtually none of them have natural boobs (as they've lost them due to their low body fat) and they instead have ridiculously oversized and round implants. As the judges mark them down for having a flat chest.

Add to that the hair extensions, fake eyelashes, veneers, fake nails, high heels and the fake tan. They no longer look natural at all, but claim it's empowering. I don't think it's a bad thing if they feel good about how they look, but honestly all I see is a bunch of meatheads marking women on how sexy their body is :(

I guess I'm rambling and I bet some people disagree with me, but I just can't understand how women think this sort of thing is empowering at all.