To be shocked by the response to the prorogation petition

[Littletabbyocelot]

I signed the petition against prorouging parliament primarily because I believe Parliament is an important part of our checks and balances and it shouldn't be dismissed when key decisions are being made. It sets a terrible precedent.

I received the response today. It is really long but the first 3 paragraphs are:

'Prorogation is a pregotative act of the crown exercised on the advice of ministers. We must respect the referendum result and the UK will be leaving the EU on the 31st October whatever the circumstances.

'The UK will be leaving the EU on the 31st October whatever the circumstances. We must respect the referendum result.

'Prorogation is a pregotative act of the crown exercised on the advice of ministers to bring about the end of the parliamentary session...'

It then goes on about the process, fixed term parliament and how this prorogation is to allow extra funding for the police and for schools.

AIBU to think that:

1. The government have repeatedly said prorogation wasn't about Brexit so leaving on the 31st shouldn't have been mentioned at all, never mind twice in the first two paragraphs

1. It's very badly written.

1. It should have responded to the actual concern which is that the government shouldn't use tools like this to avoid the checks and balances that parliament provides. What if next time its parliament voting to stop a war?

'

Hannah, yes I'm sure austerity was a choice. Economics is a subject that interests me and I did a fair bit of reading about it at the time. Other choices included increased government borrowing to stimulate the economy.

We still have a deficit (the difference between what the government has going out and what it has coming in). We are choosing not to make it a central fact of policy just as we chose to make it a central fact in 2008.

The response to the petition for a 2nd referendum was condescending nonsense too. We're far too stupid to have an opinion. God I am fed up of feckless politicians treating us as pawns in their money making games.

Are you sure about that

People said it at the time.

Running a country isn’t like running a household, it isn’t that simple so that analogy is flawed.

The government pumped money into the financial services sector after the crisis. This created massive debt.

What should have happened is that sector should have been made to repay as it was only by being propped up did many banks survive.

So many people forget that the banks were effectively gambling and making up complex instruments to generate trades to make them and only them wealthy. When it all fell down, taxpayers picked up the pieces.

Oliversmumsarmy

They admitted they lied about how much the NHS are going to get before the Referendum. Just like Johnson lied about the kippers and about prorogation. He repeatedly lies and yet people persist in believing him.

I'm fuming about the lies and manipulation, not about more police on the streets . Little tabby got it you sadly didn't.

The other point is it' doesn't address the fact that it is irrelevant to the petition, which is about the belief that what he has done is unconstitutional and dangerous to our democracy. And please don't bang on about the Referendum not being implemented as not being democratic as we all now it was advisory and not binding as otherwise it would have been legally set aside.

I suppose that is supposed to be amusingly scathing pretending I'm Jeremy Corbyn. I'm no fan of him. So rather falls flat.

All the leave voters I know knew as soon as the referendum was announced how they were going to vote so what was said didn't matter.

I can go only on the people I speak to. Nobody gives a crap what is or isn't a lie, Leavers or Remainers they are all fed up to the back teeth of it all and want out.

A couple have said they support parliament not opening for 5 weeks so at least there is a break hearing about it.

If the Referendum was only advisory why did David Cameron resign. Why didn't he just say he took note of what people wanted and would look into making our membership of the EU be more relevant to those who voted leave.

"Leavers or Remainers they are all fed up to the back teeth of it all and want out."

BULL SHIT!

Have a look at @RemainerNow on twitter

"If the Referendum was only advisory why did David Cameron resign"

Because the twat promised to implement it, not thinking the country would be stupid enough to vote to leave, and he realised that it was impossible to achieve without seriously damaging the country.

All the leave voters I know knew as soon as the referendum was announced how they were going to vote so what was said didn't matter.

Yeah, I know. This is the problem all over, isn’t it? Even now, with all we know about the risks, people would still vote leave, and wouldn’t change their minds based on any amount of compelling new information screaming at them to do otherwise. After all, they’ve made their minds up, they now what they want, even if it is unrealistic and hugely costly. It is utterly depressing. Frightening, actually.

DorisDaysDadsDogsDead

Why do you call Bullshit

Read the rest of my post maybe?

I suspect if anyone who voted Remain is telling you they "just want out", it's to get you to shut up with your idiotic witterings...

Oh another remainer spitting their dummy out @Littletabbyocelot

anyone who has looked at increase/decrease in taxes knows the lower the taxation the more income the taxman gets.

Who knows we might even get to pay less tax

I admit I'm not an expert, but I'm not quite seeing this.

I mean, given that the whole Brexit shitshow was apparently triggered by the EU attempting to clamp down on the problem of wealthy people taking the piss re tax laws, and the UK being one of the worst offenders on this front...

I'm really not seeing any plausible route from "burning the country down to avoid being forced to comply with the principle of ethical taxation" to "increased tax intake."

How's that actually supposed to work? How does the narrative go?

And how are we compensating for the fact that the people who are steering the whole thing for their own financial interest, have a vested interest in persuading the rest of us to parrot the mantra that "reduced taxation = increased tax receipts"?

Unsurprised. Contemptuous. Not shocked.

I suspect if anyone who voted Remain is telling you they "just want out", it's to get you to shut up with your idiotic witterings

I have never raised the subject. Comments are about the radio news which is on in the background.

Everyone knows we are leaving they just want to get on with it and pick up the pieces and get on with their lives and not have this ridiculous fannying around trying to put off the inevitable

You know that we won't 'get on with it' for YEARS even after a no deal brexit? Have you seen what negotiating a trade deal actually involves? We will be dealing with the fallout of this for decades. 'Get it over with' is self-deluded fantasy of the highest order. And wtf with 'pick up the pieces'- why are you choosing to chuck the plate on the floor in the first place?!

All the leave voters I know knew as soon as the referendum was announced how they were going to vote so what was said didn't matter.

Agree with this.
I also think the so called 'project fear' warnings at the time of the Ref over egged the pudding and so now people (leavers) see any warnings etc as more project fear.

We need more compromise.
People eg Jo Swinson saying even if a theoretical 2nd ref produced another leave result that it would be ignored (not very Liberal or democratic) are just as unhelpful as those screaming for the hardest possible no deal.

The thing about "project fear" was the things that were mentioned that would go up in price most people had no hope of according any way and house prices falling in price was a positive because they couldn't afford a house at the current prices

You know that we won't 'get on with it' for YEARS even after a no deal brexit? Have you seen what negotiating a trade deal actually involves

So we might as well get on with it.

If a trade deal takes so long to negotiate then how even with an extension till next February are we going to be leaving even then.

How can we negotiate a grade deal with anyone other than the EU if we haven't left

How can they say we will be leaving on 31st Oct whatever the circumstances when they passed a law compelling Bodge to ask for an extension?

^ this. We won't be leaving on the 31st whatever the circumstances. Because if it's no deal then that would be illegal. Bozo has to request an extension

We won't be able to negotiate a 'great deal' with anyone, because what happens when you negotiate from a position of weakness? You have to agree to whatever your trading partner wants. So I hope you have no love for the NHS, workplace safety rules, maternity rights, food safety standards and suchlike, because the vultures will be circling. We will have willingly left a huge trading block with massive negotiating power to become a small, weak outpost. This isn't sodding Dunkirk and we will end up poorer, meaner and weaker. What do you think happens to fish who leave their shoal in the open ocean? That's the UK (or England, once the union breaks up). Every economic expert you care to think of is in agreement. The only people who don't give a toss are rich bastards like Rees mogg who stand to make a killing in the wreckage.

And one thing that will go up in price after no deal is food. As far as I know poor people need to buy that as much as rich people. And who will suffer most if food prices rise by 10-20%? Clue - not the rich people.

Oh so people YOU know decided how they were voting immediately and you've extrapolated to all people. Okay, well 99% of people I know voted Remain, so they must have won then, yes?

A couple have said they support parliament closing so they get a break from hearing about it

Oh give me strength. So Doris from number 44 is bored about hearing about it on the news headlines, so bugger democracy.

Surely u must be a bot designed to distract us from what's going on. You can't be real.

@FuckFacePlatapus well that's bingo for me, thank you.

I'm not particularly pro EU, I'm anti leaving in a way that fucks the economy, put's peoples health at risk, exposes the NHS to US trade deals or breaks the good Friday agreement. I voted remain but had there been a plausible leave plan I might not have.

Im not spitting my dummy out. I have genuine, rational concerns and I'm exercising my democratic right to express them. In this instance you might agree with the action our prime minister wants to force through but if he gets away with it, there will be a next time (whether this government or a future one) and you might not.

My parents were broadly pro the mastricht treaty but they were still furious that John Major forced it through on a confidence vote. Parliament is our elected representatives acting for us. Take that away at will and we just have a prime minister who can act as s/he wishes. That's worth getting annoyed about.

The government doesn't give a toss what a lot of the population thinks.

Really? Are they not trying to give a majority of the population who could be bothered to vote what they wanted, ie an exit from the EU? One could argue that their opponants are the ones who are trying to avoid giving the population what they want! Before anyone jumps down my throat I voted to remain.

What a shambolic response. Yanbu.

hannah that is not how tariffs work. Tariffs are imposed on imports by our own government to protect domestic products and keep prices high - currently we do not pay tariffs on products coming from the EU because we are in a single market. After we leave, in the absence of a trade deal, WTO rules mean tariffs automatically apply so prices will go up (and UK producers exporting abroad will be affected by tariffs imposed by other countries)

Why people don't try and understand basic facts before making up their minds on such an important issue is beyond me. It's no wonder Leavers (apart from rich ones) get called stupid and xenophobic

Also, the theory about low taxation leading to higher tax receipts only applies to the very rich and big business - basically anyone rich enough to avoid tax. It certainly doesn't mean lower tax for ordinary workers.
Ireland has a so called low tax economy to attract business - but income tax is actually higher than here.