To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Except EU movement is more restricted because the right is job related. Freedom of movement of workers.

This simply isn't happening in practice though is it? Come to London, travel on the tube. On every train you will get at least 2 people within an hour's journey walk the length of the train carrying a bit of cardboard stating they are Romanian, homeless and asking for money. There are so many Eastern Europeans sleeping on the streets in London - how did they get here if they have to have a job to be here?

I haven't read the rest of the thread, only your initial post- but I note that you conveniently omitted to mention how exactly you feel we would deal with the introduction of trade tariffs on our goods, when 50% of our trade is with the EU?

I think most Brexiters either don't know this, or naively think that we can carry on as normal afterwards. It's economic suicide, and no free trade agreement with the US would ever come close to compensating for the impact on trade of EU withdrawal.

It hasn't happened because the UK doesn't bother to use the laws it has. Much better to whip up hatred against immigrants, and then let the Brexiters and their hedge fund chums make money.

I understand you OP.

I voted Remain and would vote Remain again.

But I voted Remain for two reasons:

1. Remaining works out better for me on a personal level
2. Leaving is the unknown and I didn't want to feel responsible for potentially helping cause havoc via a Leave vote

But in reality, although I would vote Remain again, I agree with you.

I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on

What laws are these you are nervous of?

The EU laws regarding working have only actually been beneficial to us.

This simply isn't happening in practice though is it?

But that has nothing to do with the EU.

how did they get here if they have to have a job to be here?

Perhaps travelling as a tourist on a train, boat or plane?

Unless you know about something I don't people would still be able to do that after Brexit.

I hope someone explains better... the vague impression I have is, if you rock up in Germany hoping to get benefits you can't get them easily (even as EU-national). There's a 3 month residency test (they apply to their own nationals). Stops people moving around & helps reduce benefit fraud. They also, like most countries have an ID card system to control all this.

Whereas UK has much looser rules about who can rock up & get benefits, and lower thresholds for proving need & entitlement; EU nationals can claim fairly quickly after arrival in UK, historically. This was pointed out repeatedly as problem before Referendum.

This is a problem the UK made for itself, not one the EU imposed upon UK.

EU nationals have an initial right to enter and to reside, but within max 6 months they are supposed to be a qualified person under EU law or the dep of one. That is, being employed or self employed and earning enough to pay Class 1 NI. Self employed or self sufficient with private health insurance. Or they can still potentially still be considered a jobseeker for longer than 6 months provided they can show they are JobCentre registered, actively seeking work and have a legitimate chance of finding something.

EU nationals and family members who don't fit into one of these categories can and always have been legally able to be removed. EU law most certainly doesn't prevent that. The UK just chose not to do this very much.

if you rock up in Germany hoping to get benefits you can't get them easily (even as EU-national). There's a 3 month residency test (they apply to their own nationals). Stops people moving around & helps reduce benefit fraud. They also, like most countries have an ID card system to control all this.

Exactly. My impression is that the host country has to give the same rights to EU citizens as it does to its own citizens. Yet looking at the comments on this thread many people are against imposing restrictions on UK citizens - ID cards or border checks.

To say that under EU law freedom of movement requires people to have a job is literally meaningless when you say in the next breath that they come here posing as tourists. Yes, the issue is that there are no checks on who is coming into the country or why because of freedom of movement.

Tbf we also have habitual residence tests for benefits too lljkk. Can easily take longer than 3 months to become eligible even. But there are stricter countries in the EU it's true.

Yes, the issue is that there are no checks on who is coming into the country or why because of freedom of movement.

But they would still be able to travel freely within Europe as tourists after Brexit. Ending freedom of movement of workers does not mean that people won't be able to travel as tourists and stay illegally.

EU nationals have an initial right to enter and to reside, but within max 6 months they are supposed to be a qualified person under EU law or the dep of one.

Can you explain how this is monitored then?

It isn't. That was the point of my post.

So I do want EU workers to remain here but I'm uneasy about all these rules to curb people entering the country alongside unlimited immigration from within the EU. If we do become "full" at some point in the future we need to be able limit immigration in a far more reasonable way.

OP, are you not reading, or not understanding, all the posts that have pointed out that WE DO NOT HAVE unlimited immigration from within the EU.?

Decomposing, Can you explain how this is monitored then?*
How about you ask your MP that?

It isn't. That was the point of my post.

And there is no reason to believe that would change after Brexit. It's a UK, not an EU issue.

Most illegal immigrants enter a country legally and overstay. It would still be legal to travel between countries in the EU.

OP I have only read the OP and a few more of your posts as I find the topic too upsetting but as a passionate remain voter posting on a majority remain site I just wanted to thank you for reaching out in such a civil and constructive manner state your opinions and reasons. I think more of us on both sides need to have open and constructive dialogue to try and heal the rift and listen to people’s real thoughts and concerns.

How about you ask your MP that?

So are you telling me that here in the UK we could legally record and monitor all EU citizens that enter the country, what they are doing while they are here and then remove them after 6 months if they don't have a job?

There are other ways to legally live in a country under EU law than having a job, so no. But the Spanish, Belgians and Dutch all require people to register if they're staying more than 3-4 months and that doesn't breach EU law in the slightest. And removing people who are in the UK without the right to reside under EU law and don't have any other right to be here either isn't illegal.

What Merry says.

MerryChristmasHarry

What options other than to have a job? Earlier you said that freedom of movement required teh person to have a job.

But the Spanish, Belgians and Dutch all require people to register if they're staying more than 3-4 months and that doesn't breach EU law in the slightest.

But surely you have to record them as soon as they enter the country and then monitor that they leave after 3 months or track them down to see what they are doing? How can you let people enter without record and rely on them self reporting? They could just disappear and no one will have a clue that they are there.

So does the EU permit all visitors to be recorded on entry and departure and there whereabouts known whilst in the country?

No decomposing I did not say that. I outlined in a post of mine that you replied to what the other options are. Self-sufficiency or studying alongside having private health insurance, or self-employment. Those are no more or less valid ways to reside under EU law than as an employed person.

I don't know what systems are used, I'm not in any of those countries. I only know it's entirely legal. EU law allows it. It also allows recording.

@MerryChristmasHarry this is what was written in a previous post. It was this that I was referring to. It's very clear that the poster says freedom of movement is restricted to workers.

Except EU movement is more restricted because the right is job related. Freedom of movement of workers.

Self-sufficiency or studying alongside having private health insurance, or self-employment.

Since when do students need to have private health insurance when in the UK? They use the NHS.