To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Yes, that particular hypocrisy has often been pointed out decomposing.

Again though, it doesn't actually matter. The sea border is potentially inflammatory and unacceptable to a cohort within NI, and there are potential consequences to this. Which aren't going to be dispelled by anyone's neat arguments about inconsistency. That's just how it is.

@decomposing

And Scotland has different property conveyancing laws.. each region has its own devolved rules with slight variations. Scottish people would still be able to travel to London without being checked on the way to see if they are definitely a citizen of the UK as opposed to a German in disguise.

Whilst most of us want the abortion laws changed that is a different matter because abortion laws haven’t caused 30 years of bombing and shooting. Abortion changes weren’t written into a legally binding international peace treaty. So yes on this matter it must have special treatment.

And on that matter if the border is in the sea ladies travelling for an abortion in meantime would be going through your proposed security checks to get there!

Probably I am not alone in thinking that NI Unionists are acting like the stone in the shoe? I have read the full thread and accept I was tactless yesterday's comments. There comes a point when it is pointless to protest that the world has changed.

XingMing I'd support the introduction of compulsory ID cards. Simple way of proving one's identity, and very helpful for UK citizens without passports or driving licences.

I think you were misguided OP or naive in thinking that we could somehow extricate ourselves from 40 years of trading relationships and legislation without a hint of what would take its place. I voted remain not because I think the EU is perfect but because being part of a big bloc gives us more bargaining power than we would have as a relatively small country who is nowhere near self sufficient and needs our EU partners at least as much as they need us. I do blame leavers for the mess we are in as I think they should have given more thought to their vote. Extending the deadline again would make no difference but just delay the uncertainty even longer.

The thing about war it is always predominantly the women and children who suffer the most. Mothers lose children and husbands brothers and fathers and are held back when society suffers. They raise their traumatised kids alone when husband is murdered or imprisoned. They deal with it when their husbands have PTSD even still to this day. They are told to shut up about what they know.

Women gave up careers in Belfast to get away from the bombing. Their places of work were bombed. They felt the wrath of family when they fell in love with someone from the other side.

They have to keep the house going and kids fed when the economy bombs. The children grow up in fear and are conditioned to normalise violence and prejudices.
Handbag searches going into shopping malls. They deal with the heartbreak and injuries of their family members.
They were evicted from their homes when they didn’t fit the right background. Petrol bombed out. Sometimes with devastatingly fatal results

www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/beyond-the-silence-by-julieann-campbell-review-women-s-voices-on-the-troubles-1.2671683%3Fmode%3Damp

Yes Abortion reform would be a welcome step forward for NI women today but the GFA was a huge leap forward for women in its time and needs to be protected so please stop belittling the GFA by using abortion as a way to complain about the DUP ( I assume that’s who you are referring to) just because the DUP have annoyed the English. You never knew who they were before they had to prop Theresa up.

Abortion reform will come but we need to protect peace first.

And on that matter if the border is in the sea ladies travelling for an abortion in meantime would be going through your proposed security checks to get there!

Then why can't we legalise abortion in NI? If Brexit fails (which I'm sure it will) and in the main it will be because NI cannot accept any compromise because they are insisting on being treated as the rest of the UK then why can't we insist that they follow laws applicable to the rest of the UK?

@decomposing

Why do you suddenly care? How is that going to solve Brexit?

Abortion laws have been different in NI since 1967.

1967!!!!

This was Before the troubles started and certainly before GFA.

The abortion act was simply never extended here and there is yet to be a public referendum but there are people on the ground here fighting for it all the time.

In 52 years not one English person mentioned it or gave diddly squat about whether or not women could have an abortion here...until suddenly Northern Ireland became the stumbling block of Brexit.

I would love to see abortion brought in here but I’m sick to death of people like you rolling out that argument because it is has nothing at all to do with the peace treaty that was fought for.

Stop trying to use vulnerable women as some sort of iron rod to get your Brexit and what you want because you are completely missing the point. If abortion was legal here tomorrow the Brexit and border problems would still exist .

There are many many variances in the regions other than abortion:
In NI
our education system is different
We don’t have council tax . Instead a different system of property rates
We have a different voting system
We used to have different car registrations

Scotland and Wales have their own regional differences.

We all have different public holidays.
Different university fees

None of these variances invalidate the position of a person to be a full Uk citizen.

Having their citizenship verified and checked at every turn does. Because it places an international frontier between one set of citizens in a country and the rest. Treating them as if they are trying to sneak into their own country.

But I’m waiting patiently for BJ’s big solution cos he seems confident. Just holding his cards close to his chest so he can surprise us all.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf

Here is the Good Friday Agreement for anyone that can be bothered to read it.

The only people who can change Northern Ireland’s status in the Uk is the people of Northern Ireland ( and ROI if jointly voting to accept a united ireland as they might not want us back even if we sometime vote for a united ireland)

This means the English, Welsh and Scottish have no say in either keeping us in the Uk, or separating NI from the UK and sending us back to Ireland. You don’t get to decide if you keep us or get rid of us. So whilst we are a small region unfortunately for you it does have ramifications for the Brexit you desire. You just had no knowledge of its existence when you voted for Brexit.

Having a border in the sea with all the identity checks as described above, in my view ,is a very fine line in breaching this as it would be a change in Northern Ireland’s status within the UK. Just like a hard border with ROI would be deemed a breach of the clauses around Irish identity.

It could be challenged as such and I suspect that is why one or other border has not already happened. The agreement was designed as such to be robust and fair to each side to enable all people to confidently vote for it. To take away from either side would be disastrous for peace.

All the “ why don’t those pesky Irish do this or do that” won’t change the fact that this is a peace treaty. It can’t be changed until the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland decides we are ready for a referendum on a united ireland...not because mrs mumsnetter from middle England wants Brexit. and we are not there yet!

Totally agree with@MissConductUS. Anyone granted an eu Passport is able to come here whether wanted or not. Before we allow people in we should sort out the housing problems. Quite simply the UK is full, we need to pull up the drawbridge and get the place in order before anyone else moves here. £350m a week will make a start on Schools, Hospitals, Roads and then introduce an Australian style points system and deport the boat people

Words fail me...

Even with a border at see, EU citizens could still go at will to the RoI and then go at will to NI, which is in the UK. Therefore, there would be no control of borders for the UK as Brexiters want.

The whole border at sea argument considers NI as not UK and only Great Britain as proper UK.

The alternative would be for the RoI to start putting restrictions on EU citizens crossing their borders, again in violation of their EU membership.

The GFA works because the UK and RoI have similar statuses in the EU.

As for stopping immigration to the UK altogether, you'd have to consider what would happen to expats, immigrants in other countries, to universities who rely on foreign students, the NHS with its foreign workers, and all those shirty jobs nationals won't do.
Then contend with a dwindling population due to low birth rate and an increasingly old non-productive population.
Good luck.

I don't think the UK is full and I don't think, certainly in my area, that we have an immigration problem. But the government seems to think we do with their inhospitality to asylum seekers, the windrush issue the huge difficulties in appointing skilled non-eu workers and the onerous responsibilities placed on employers.

So I do want EU workers to remain here but I'm uneasy about all these rules to curb people entering the country alongside unlimited immigration from within the EU. If we do become "full" at some point in the future we need to be able limit immigration in a far more reasonable way.

Its important everyone understands that whatever you personally think of ID cards, abortion and anything else you might care to raise, even if the policies you suggest are implemented, having to show photo ID to move between parts of the UK is inflammatory to some people and that problem isn't going anywhere.

It is a problem created only by Brexit and it is not going to be minimised or argued away. It is utter self-indulgence to imagine otherwise. And xingming we are not simply talking about protest here.

What's to stop, in a no deal scenario, the UK Government saying that, by UK laws, the Irish border will remain as it is?
If the European Government has a problem with that they must find a solution.

It's extremely sad that after more than three years, we still have posters who can only mouth soundbites.

The GFA was a huge achievement, but sadly since a lot of people in England barely realise what was going on in N Ireland, they don't realise this. John Major did most of the spadework, for which he will rightly go down in history, Blair came along and took the credit, and blew his place in the credit stakes because of the Iraq war.

Immigrants don't go to full countries where they can't find jobs or where to live.

People movement within the EU is similar to movement within the UK.
London won't build a moat and install drawbridges because people flock from other UK regions and it's too full.
Wealth is redistributed because improving conditions and the economy in regions of high emigration is good for the all and limits migration.

The idea of the EU is to have a big block that supports all members internally but keeping political and economic sovereignty.

That's why most Brexit arguments that have been thrown about by the likes of Farage and Bozo reek of nationalism. They're quite independent of what's really best for the UK, just not wanting to be part of something bigger because the UK (and in their minds it's England) is the biggest and needs nobody.

Blair came along and took the credit

Mostly from Mo Mowlam.

I speak several, French best, as it was taught at school and I did an A level. Also German to O level, and Latin, so I can just about read Spanish and Italian.

I know this was days ago but proper LOLZ at someone offering decades-old A and O levels as evidence of their multilingual skillz.

Well said, blubberyboo.

What's to stop, in a no deal scenario, the UK Government saying that, by UK laws, the Irish border will remain as it is? If the European Government has a problem with that they must find a solution.

Oh ffs have you been paying attention to anything?

WTO rules for one thing.

readingreading Why are you still going on about 'unlimited immigration' from the EU when people have explained over and over that it is the UK government that has abjectly failed to implement the rules around this (yes! there are rules!).

Also, it rather does a shit on the idea of taking back control of our borders, which we know a lot of Leave voters felt was necessary.

Any EU national and their family members, who don't necessarily have to be EU nationals themselves, can simply waltz over the Irish border unchecked, and then be present in the UK illegally. This differs from the current situation because now, when such people do that, they are doing so legally, and have the right to reside at least for the first three months.

People movement within the EU is similar to movement within the UK

Except EU movement is more restricted because the right is job related. Freedom of movement of workers.