To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

@Voila212

Holy crap! That article is an eye-opener. Thanks for the link.

Maximus Ireland isn't in the Schengen area, it didn't join because it didn't want to affect the common travel area with the UK and the GFA.

Why is it seen as such a great thing for people to be able travel across many borders without having to identify themselves?

What 'many borders' are you currently crossing if you want to travel from England or Scotland or Wales to NI? That's right...none because there isn't currently a sodding border between one part of the UK and another.

@MaximusHeadroom

Ireland is also in the Schengen zone so you can travel from France to Ireland by ferry without a passport.

That's not correct - Ireland isn't in Schengen.

@Voila212
@familycourtq

Apologies. You are of course correct

Decomposing
But when I get off the ferry in France I can then drive to Spain, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland etc without showing ID. They are different countries so why don't I have to show ID at those borders too then?

Because they are in the Schengen area. You can read all about the Schengen zone here

God, this is painful.

Yes juell, everyone is so focused on the backstop that they don't realise what else Boris is trying to change. No bother Maximus, the ironic thing is that Ireland didn't join the schengen zone because it would have caused a physical border between itself and NI and end the CTA with the UK.

Switzerland is neither in the EU nor in Schengen so you do have to show your passport there.

Switzerland is Schengen, actually. But not EU.

As are Iceland, Norway, and Liechtenstein.

So, the UK can leave and join Schengen, but then, border control....

Switzerland is neither in the EU nor in Schengen so you do have to show your passport there.

Sorry but no you don't. We've driven across the French Swiss border countless times - never even seen the crossing manned let alone had our passports checked.

I had hoped to see some decent reasons to explain the mess we’re in , but I haven’t. Nothing stacks up.

I still can't begin to grasp why people are supposedly so worried about the EU army which probably will never happen and is hardly going to impact on our daily lives if it did, yet are completely blasé about the dangers to Northern Ireland (attested to by everyone who has any expert knowledge) and the stated desire of almost all the prominent Brexiters to use Brexit as a chance to turn us into a regulatory free-for-all?

My own personal bet for the first target will be TUPE rights. Probably most people haven't heard of them - you'll be told their removal will give "value for money" and it will basically mean that private companies can take over public services and make more money by stripping workers of their terms and conditions and paying them lower salaries. You can imagine that quality of service will not improve given the sterling record of private sector contractors.

And this fear will be waved away as "Oh well, we can vote out the government in five years time" by the same people who are terrified that the EU will somehow "take away national identities" although they can't explain why or even how it would do such a thing.

Seriously, why are you so consumed with fear by things that probably won't happen and wouldn't really matter much if they did and yet clear and present dangers like the Northern Ireland situation don't worry you at all?

The argument to leave seems to rest mostly on the idea we are all so different on different sides of national boundaries. We aren’t. We have different cultural habits to varying degrees, and varying geographies, but our wants and needs are the same.

Just as with Scottish independence all the practical worries are brushed off as oh so boring. But these are the things people will notice.

And here we are - the talks now equally threatened by UK's insistence on the right to have different (ie lower) standards on environmental and social laws as by the NI backstop.

twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1169995209951850497

But please, tell me why I should be more worried about the EU Army. When I'm breathing in poisoned air and setting off to do some enforced overtime because we no longer benefit from the Working Time Directive I'm sure I'll find it most comforting to know that the EU army is just around the corner, honest.

@DecomposingComposers

I feel embarrassed for you

There are no borders between NI and Scotland England and Wales because they are all one country.
The GFA reaffirmed that position and guaranteed the UNIONIST MAJORITY (AND THEY ARE NOT ALL DUP VOTERS BTW) in the population that they will remain a full part of the Uk. I travel back and forth and whilst private ferry companies and airlines have a policy of SHOWING ID it is usually little more than a quick glance. Sometimes not at all. The purpose is to make sure that you match the name on the ticket. It could be a student card electoral card or even an out of date passport or driving licence.

There is no processing of your identity or security screening.

A border in the sea will require much more stringent security processing to make sure EU citizens from Spain or wherever aren’t nipping into England by the backdoor.
Instead of being domestic travel it will be more like international travel.
It will need to be a valid passport. People will have to spend money updating this and every citizen will have to hold it. Which means if sudden unexpected travel comes up to attend a job interview, funeral , health appointment, they will need to go and apply for a bloody passport have a passport interview and wait a month for it.

Who suffers? NI people of course for those reasons plus as they have to have their details processed on each trip. Many commute daily or weekly for work. Who knows if in the future it will lead to fingerprinting, retinal images?? Constant processing of your identity and image which feels like scrutiny of you moving about within YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

This would be a breach of the part of the GFA which was designed to pacify unionists and loyalists.

If you put the border on the land between NI and ROI you are breaching part of the GFA which was designed to pacify nationionalists and republicans.

Either way you are kicking off unrest again.

PLEASE tell me you understand this???

Can you not see why in 3 years of our “brightest minds” working on it nobody has come up with a workable idea

All of the last pages agonising could be averted by the UK's citizens carrrying a photo identity card. I really DO Not understand why we don't have one. Given the technology we have (like basic card readers) why would it not also include the information that you are an organ donor with a rare blood group (opted in or out). officially eligible for NHS treatment and that you are known to HMRC.

Hardly. Everyone having photo IDs in no way means it wouldn't be inflammatory to some to have to show them when travelling between NI and the rest of the UK. People need to understand that there are Loyalists who reject this on principle.

The problem is Brexit. The only solution that might not completely fuck up NI is a very soft EEA arrangement, imperfect as that would be. The other ideas proposed are mere tinkling round the edges, and will not solve problems of this magnitude.

Having provided samples to every agency that ever asked me for one, and having nothing to hide, no record, criminal or social, I would be quite happy to have an identity card, with photo. I don't even even have points on my driving license. I would be thrilled to carry one means of identifying myself to the authorities.

The basis of my disagreement with Loyalists. If there are rules, they apply universally to all. Nobody can opt out, because they don't eat carrots.

Great. That has nothing whatsoever to do with NI Loyalist feelings on the issue however. It's no more a solution to that issue than it is a banana.

Also the reason ID card proposals were scrapped is that they were quite unpopular with the British public, so that's why we don't have them. Interestingly, Boris Johnson was very much against them back in the 00s when Labour proposed it.

You can disagree all you like with Loyalists. They're not my cup of tea either. It matters not. You don't get rid of or out of the NI problem by loftily saying you think the people there should act and think differently. The situation is what it is, and it's been worsened by the voting decisions made by Leavers.

Your brave, I'm like you & many people who voted to leave and never imagined in our wildest dreams it would be like this, now I'd vote remain, what I voted for was more like remain, we weren't voting for a no deal we haven't voted for boris, we haven't voted for a lack of parliamentary ability, we had faith in our government we have learned a lot x

But NI already insists on being different to the rest of the UK by not allowing abortion or same sex marriage..So on the one hand it wants special treatment and different laws and on the other hand no way can it be treated differently?

I do think identity cards ought to be required as in every other EU country. I carry supermarket loyalty cards in my wallet; an extra few grams wouldn't make a difference, unless I had something to conceal. I don't.

Interestingly, Boris Johnson was very much against them back in the 00s when Labour proposed it.

As was David Davis.