To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

@DecomposingComposers

@MaximusHeadroom

But we can't travel freely within the UK if we go by air and we accept that.

If I want to fly from London to Scotland I will have to show ID (possibly my passport?) What is the difference?

Because if you want to travel to Scotland without a passport you can drive or take a train.

The fact that one mode of transport has restrictions is not the same as there being border restrictions.

You would be barring entry to or exit from one part of the UK for people without passports.

It's not the worst thing to ever happen in the history of the species, but regardless of what requirements are imposed by private companies if you choose to fly with them, the right to travel between the four constituent countries without needing valid ID is a very significant one for some. You will not undermine that by pretending it somehow matters less because people can choose a mode of transport that does require ID. If that right doesn't affect you, ok. It is important to some people. Those people are disproportionately likely to be living in NI, given that its much commoner for them to travel east to access services and amenities than vice versa.

I haven't read anything beyond the OP here - but this is probably the first time a leave vote has appeared reasonable. I don't agree that the things mentioned are worth the economic damage, but it's honestly the first sensible explanation for Euro scepticism I've come across.

Sadly, I think the last bit is the most irrefutable: we shouldn't have been given a vote on this. We have representative democracy for a reason - most people (myself included) are insufficiently aware of the precise details for direct democracy to be viable.

@Voila212

It doesn't matter if you care about NI or not, the fact remains your government has a responsibility to NI and citizens. They signed the GFA and can't just tear it up because it doesn't suit anymore

Absolutely.

It is disengenuous of the government to pretend it is otherwise.

The way the government has been pretending that it is just remainers and the EU being difficult about thi is just bullshit.

Bullshit indeed. But contagious bullshit, since those Leavers who have offered their views on the issue all appear to subscribe to the intractable and irrational religious dispute, stupid natives, nothing to be done school of thought.

You would be barring entry to or exit from one part of the UK for people without passports.

Not at all. Why would they need passports? Why not photo ID of some sort?

Given the threat of terrorism why is it a bad thing to conduct some checks on passengers travelling on board ferries?

Gran Seemingly its fairly rife here in the UK,

As that (really heartbreaking) programme pointed out, slavery is 'fairly rife' internationally.

You can take a look at the Global Slavery Index here. Of the top 10 countries doing most to tackle slavery, all but two are in the EU: the US and Montenegro, which is in line to join the EU. The UK is number 3 on the list.

Freedom of Movement within the EU cannot be held responsible for the tragedy of slavery. Seriously, have a look at the countries which are taking the least action. All of them require entry visas, so the argument that issuing visas would help resolve this is pretty weak.

Decomposing Exactly. That programme was heartbreaking and sadly, being in the EU did nothing to protect those people.

Why don't you check what the EU/UK is doing to tackle this issue, ie. look up some facts, rather than using someone else's posts in an attempt to bolster your own weak arguments.

By all means argue that all ferry transport should involve photo ID for security purposes, though if it's so much of a risk, it should've been done already. But slice it however you will, that is not the same thing as losing a right because of a Brexit that is being imposed and that you didn't vote for, and this is how some people in NI see it. Your feelings on the legimitimacy of their views make no difference. If we do all require photo ID to get the ferry between NI and the rest of the UK, as things stand, it wi be due to Brexit.

What really comes across is how worried we all are about how our own government will weaponise anything and everything to use against the poorer groups in our society. None of us trust them at all. We've had four decades of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, and more disenfranchised.

Not at all. Why would they need passports? Why not photo ID of some sort

Because your rationale was flights where you have to show a passport. Lots of people don't drive or have other photo ID because there is no requirement to have an ID card in the UK.

Given the threat of terrorism why is it a bad thing to conduct some checks on passengers travelling on board ferries?

But only those between Britain and NI. So it is not that people should show ID on ferries, just on ferries to and from NI

And what about people coming in on private boats? Would they then have to present themselves to some sort of checkpoint?

Because you can dress it up how you like, you are putting a border control within the UK and although it may not bother you personally it is separating NI from the rest of the UK.

If there is an actual security rationale for why photo ID needs to be introduced on ferries between NI and the rest of the UK, I'm happy to listen to that case being made. One does wonder if in this case it's merely a deflection attempt though, particularly as it apparently hasn't been considered necessary until Brexit might impose it.

And what about people coming in on private boats? Would they then have to present themselves to some sort of checkpoint?

Well I'm quite sure that my dad used to have report to coastguards when sailing. They were certainly intercepted by customs on occasion and questioned about who they were and where they came from.

How about people travelling to the Channel Islands or the Scilly Isles? Do they have to show ID?

There has to be compromise made here. Many people don't want to remain in the EU so why is it ok for a small minority to be able to effectively block that by refusing to accept any changes whatsoever? How much of a problem is it really going to be for people travelling between NI and the mainland to show a form of ID?

Has anyone seen the article in the guardian about other changes Boris wants in the deal. He wants to be able to change workers rights for one and the ROI to leave the single market.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/backstop-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-changes-defence-workers-rights?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0DB9kz0FfYEwgcFvwaz6Mn5ZTMG4tLlkqD9ao592OJ8P92_1hH4Ur6H1E#Echobox=1567773680

MerryChristmasHarry

I guess the same rationale as showing ID before going on a cross channel ferry or the channel tunnel. Why do we need passports to go on those?

Why is it seen as such a great thing for people to be able travel across many borders without having to identify themselves? I honestly don't understand what is so great about that.

If I committed a crime in mainland Europe how far could I drive before having to show ID to anyone?

Le sigh.

It isn't necessarily just about practicalities, though it is not as if passports are free. Its two things.

First of all, lots of people in NI consider themselves British and British only, and are vehemently opposed to any difference in treatment because it undermines their identity, even if it in practical terms doesn't make much difference. It isn't Mumsnet you have to convince, its Loyalists. Who have several still active paramilitary organisations. You talk of compromise. Ever heard the term No Surrender? Best of British with that.

Secondly, its also discriminatory in practical terms, even for those who don't find the idea of being further separated from the rest of the UK offensive. Because people in NI are more likely to travel to the rest of the UK to access services and amenities than vice versa. Medical treatment, for example. There are less than 2 million of them there. Some things just don't and can't exist because there isn't a large enough population to sustain them. So an English, Welsh or Scottish resident needing to go to eg London for specialist treatment or accompany someone who is can do so without having to get photo ID. An NI resident cannot, even though we are all living in the UK. They're perfectly entitled to be fucked off about that.

@DecomposingComposers

You don't need ID to travel by ferry to the scilly isles. The Channel Islands aren't in the UK.

How much of a problem is it really going to be for people travelling between NI and the mainland to show a form of ID?

For NI Unionists? A big problem. So we are back to reigniting tensions in NI.

We need photo ID to go into different countries because they're different countries. We dont need photo ID to go from England to Wales because they're both in the UK. Ffs...

I guess the same rationale as showing ID before going on a cross channel ferry or the channel tunnel. Why do we need passports to go on those?

Because we're not in the Schengen zone. HTH.

As a feminist It is also an issue for me because a border between NI and ROI or NI and Britain would further restrict access for young women to these areas. Abortion is still illegal in almost all circumstances in NI.

Although ideally the law in NI would be changed, that could take years and in the meantime an already vulnerable group of women will be given additional hardship.

@DecomposingComposers

I guess the same rationale as showing ID before going on a cross channel ferry or the channel tunnel. Why do we need passports to go on those?

Because you are travelling to a different country.

How much of a problem is it really going to be for people travelling between NI and the mainland to show a form of ID?

You genuinely seem to have NO IDEA how sensitive the NI issues are. Or are you just being disingenuous?

If I committed a crime in mainland Europe how far could I drive before having to show ID to anyone?

The nearest police road stop?

In Portugal for example, it's mandatory to carry ID, particularly when driving. ID card and driving license.

Because you are travelling to a different country.

But when I get off the ferry in France I can then drive to Spain, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland etc without showing ID. They are different countries so why don't I have to show ID at those borders too then?

But when I get off the ferry in France I can then drive to Spain, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland etc without showing ID. They are different countries so why don't I have to show ID at those borders too then?

Because countries in the Schengen zone agree not to have border checks. It is their choice.

Switzerland is neither in the EU nor in Schengen so you do have to show your passport there.

Ireland is also in the Schengen zone so you can travel from France to Ireland by ferry without a passport. But if the Backstop happens, you would potentially need one to go from Belfast to Liverpool. Can you see the madness?

The countries in the Schengen Zone chose to join and not require border checks. That's up to them. We chose not to join. Arrangements other countries might enter into have nothing to do with whether imposing a sea border within the UK is a problematic idea (it is).