To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Given the way employers tend to hate maternity rights and this government's history of putting its business friends' interests first, does anyone really have faith that they wouldn't do this?

So we have to rely upon the EU because too many of us vote Tory - that's essentially it then? (I have never voted Tory FWIW).

So you have controls to travel within the UK?

*What's wrong with that?

What's not wrong with it?
Everyone would need a passport to travel within the UK to and from Ireland. I'm sure it would work great...

But that is what I am asking - if you are employed on a zero hour contract, pressured into waiving your working time directive rights, and trying to live on NMW how exactly is the EU helping you?**@DecomposingComposers

I think the immediate change you would notice outside the EU is that food would become a lot more expensive, and there would be less of it about - less quantity, less variety. Wages will not rise to accommodate that. Healthcare is already becoming restricted and that will continue as medication shortages kick in. Does your example know anyone currently reliant on drugs? There will be increased resentment of those who seem to have these things, whether they've grown / earned them or no.

It's quite possible we will lose Scotland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland's civil war will start up again, and if you don't care about northern Ireland remember the bombing campaigns they conducted here. Instability and economic loss from those will further reverberate through the system. Wealth may not trickle down, but it's never the richest who suffer in times of trouble is it. They have cushions and security nets. Your example does not. That means, again, more expensive food, more expensive energy, and other goods in the shop.

We'll be more vulnerable to threats from Russia and China, and be a much lower priority for traders. We are very vulnerable to trading fluctuations as a nation that can't directly support itself - so again more expensive goods in the shops. Anything that comes from abroad will be rarer, more difficult to repair and much more expensive - I'm wondering whether to replace my old German fridge now!

More broadly, there's the cultural trends and influences we will lose: in Britain trends towards privatisation and American-style inequality will continue. The global region, Europe, will be that more weakened and destabilised itself. What that means for the person on the street is an increased risk of violence, perhaps war in times of global stress as environmental issues grow. So will the tendencies towards insularity. Divisions will only increase. We're already seeing the rise of hate crimes and violence.

Broadly - more expense, no improved wages, further reductions in standard of living, and increased social divisions, uncertainty, stress and potentially violence. You might think things can't get worse - but they can. We're being ruled by people who actively like division and who will use it ruthlessly to get what they want.

The thing with people being upset about immigrants is that whether you think that's legit or not, leaving the EU isn't actually going to prevent it. Some types of immigration may well increase.

For example, we will likely wish to make trade deals with India and China. That's just good sense. They are likely, and this has been hinted at already, to want more preferential Visa access for their nationals than they currently get, as part of these deals. Are we really going to play hardball with China and win? Of course not. Or take asylum seekers. The UK, due to our location, got more of the benefit from the Dublin provisions than southern EU states did. Once we go, so does that. The French have actually been doing and allowing us to do quite a lot to prevent asylum seekers crossing the Channel. They don't have to do that once we leave.

So the situation with immigration is quite different to NI, where there's a direct connection between GFA, EU membership and peace.

@familycourtq - the UK can restrict the amount of EU Nationals it takes now, just like Belgium does. It's a myth that it can't.

so I'd have to cross a border to go to somewhere within my own country? To travel from London to Belfast, for instance. Both in the UK but I'd have to cross a border. I think there's a lot wrong with that!

Quick challenge for you - have a look round where you live and find out how many and how much of the goods you use - food, household, energy - come from abroad. All of that will be more difficult to obtain and more expensive. The knock-on effect will be more increased competition internally too, so that will go up in price.

Yes, I don't see why I should have to cross a border and potentially have to get a valid proof of ID to travel within the UK either. You can currently travel between NI and the rest of the UK without having to do that if you go on the ferry.

Yes, I don't see why I should have to cross a border and potentially have to get a valid proof of ID to travel within the UK either. You can currently travel between NI and the rest of the UK without having to do that if you go on the ferry.

The operative phrase there being "if you go by ferry". If we fly anywhere in the UK we have to go through controls and we accept that so what is so terrible about showing ID to get on a ferry? Surely that could be a good thing for security reasons?

Everyone would need a passport to travel within the UK to and from Ireland. I'm sure it would work great...

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so I'd have to cross a border to go to somewhere within my own country?

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Bizarrely, that's how a lot of Irish people feel as well about a border being imposed on Ireland. So strange....

How would you stop EU citizens from entering Ireland legally, travelling to NI, jumping on a ferry and entering Britain. Wasn't brexit 'taking back our borders'..

People are easier to keep track of than goods.

@familycourtq - the UK can restrict the amount of EU Nationals it takes now, just like Belgium does. It's a myth that it can't.
That's true - but we'd need to make some significant changes to how public services and national life work of course.

But aren't our maternity rights better than those stipulated by the EU? So our government could reduce them and still be in line with the EU. So if we adhered to EU rules we would be worse off than we currently are.

This is why the country is in a mess. People do not read or try to understand things; they jump to irrational conclusions. The EU sets a minimum period. It doesn't hold a knife to the throats of its members and say 'This is precisely how much time off you can give new parents.' It is a minimum standard. Shall I say it again? It is a minimum. EU states may decide to give more, but not less.
FFS. This is so wearing.

People are easier to keep track of than goods.

My memory of crossing from Stranraer to Larne is that you do need some form of identification.

@twofingerstoEverything

Patronising much? Maybe you could properly read my post. I understand that the EU sets a minimum standard. We voluntarily exceed that standard. So exactly how does being in the EU positively affect our maternity benefits? It doesn't does it because we do more than the EU stipulates.

So, we could remain in the EU and our government could announce that it will now bring our benefits in line with the EU regulations. Then our maternity benefits would go down. So how exactly has being in the EU benefitted us in this regard?

@DecomposingComposers

But aren't our maternity rights better than those stipulated by the EU? So our government could reduce them and still be in line with the EU. So if we adhered to EU rules we would be worse off than we currently are.

Yes. But outside of the EU they could reduce them to nothing. Just like they have in the USA where women have a baby on Friday and have to come to work on Monday if they don't have holiday allowance to use.

I watched Panorama last night, it was about Polish Roma who brought vulnerable people to the UK with promises of work, employment, better living etc. Basically their victims were slaves. They put them on a bus in Poland, and next day they were here, being crammed into cold, poorly furnished houses. Suddenly the promises disappeared, and they were at the mercy of the (often violent) family based gang. Seemingly its fairly rife here in the UK, fortunately a large gang were caught and prosecuted. Now the police are trying to find where all their wealth is either here or in Poland to claw at least some back.

If EU citizens had to apply for visas as everyone else does, the victims could not have been trafficked, or at least not in such large numbers. For starters they wouldn't be eligible to come here as workers, so a lot of cheap (slave) labour would disappear. Perhaps that would lead to some better opportunities for people who are already here and unemployed?

The operative phrase there being "if you go by ferry". If we fly anywhere in the UK we have to go through controls and we accept that so what is so terrible about showing ID to get on a ferry? Surely that could be a good thing for security reasons?

Then you would need to introduce the same for travelling to Scotland. NI is an equal part of the UK and people should be able to travel freely within their own country.

And if NI is no longer part of the EU, why should they have to suffer unchecked immigration? Isn't that one of the main arguments for Brexit? Or is it only mainland Britain who is allowed to take back control of immigration?

Gran22

Exactly. That programme was heartbreaking and sadly, being in the EU did nothing to protect those people.

Decomposing. I don't really care if you find my response patronising. I am so sick to death of these nonsensical arguments.

@MaximusHeadroom

But we can't travel freely within the UK if we go by air and we accept that.

If I want to fly from London to Scotland I will have to show ID (possibly my passport?) What is the difference?

... or we could announce that we're going to bring our maternity and child care provision in line with the Scands. In Finland parents can stay at home until the child is 3 then go back to work. In Belgium all children can go to a school environment at 2.5

I agree though, in Britain it is more likely to be minimum required by law. We'd then have to campaign furiously to not be the most unequal country by sex in Western Europe, talk to the Finns, Swedes, Netherlanders, Danes, Belgians about how they do things. After all, we can do that can't we if Britain is so great by itself?? I think the minimal law in this area is to get round the poorer countries. Why are we so worried about rich Britain dropping down to the minimal law requirements in the EU if Britain can do all these things by choice by itself?

Many people say that they want the EU just to be a trading organisation. IT STILL IS, predominantly, a trading organisation. We're losing all those benefits, for a few extra concerns that are whipped up by the media in political service to wealth. We are not powerless in Europe. We could be negotiating with Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark and Finland, and helping the poorer states raising those minimum laws and standards rather than dropping our own.

So we have to rely upon the EU because too many of us vote Tory - that's essentially it then? (I have never voted Tory FWIW)

Yep

But imagine if today's Tories are the moderates of tomorrow?!

If the whole Brexit process has shown us anything, it is how people vote based purely in their own interests (which they are entitled to do of course).

How many working women planning to have kids are there? If you have had your kids or don't want them or are rich, would you defend maternity rights if by reducing them you would get a tax rebate for you and your family? How many people who are never going to be agency workers would fight for their rights?

(When I said you- I mean one of course but don't want to sound like JRM )

I would also point out that EU laws have raised workers rights massively in countries in Eastern Europe who have joined who were miles below the bar before. Of course we should be aiming higher.

...or what twofingers said, more succinctly. Issues with refreshing while I'm doing other things.