To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

@DecomposingComposers

@MaximusHeadroom

EU employment rights have done nothing to stop the rise of zero hour contracts or minimum wage not being enough to live on, or enforcing rights for disabled workers.
These are all areas where our own government has autonomy and has chosen to screw us over. How much worse do you think it would be without the current EU legislation? I would argue that if our government isn't interested in these things then we clearly need more EU legislation to force their hand.

What stops the UK and EU countries from continuing to share information about criminals and terrorists etc? Presumably we share information with US for example.

Not to the same extent. We are currently part of The EU Intelligence Analysis Centre (EU INTCEN). INTCEN data is based on intelligence gathered from EU member states’ own intelligence and security services. This exclusive information includes analytical products, such as: long-term strategic papers, threat assessments for particular EU member states, and various intelligence reports.

No non-EU country is party to this. Even if they went against precedent and made a deal, the UK would have to have EU data protection laws to access the information.

Like with trade, we do share intelligence with other countries but what we share with our immediate neighbours is most important.

These are all areas where our own government has autonomy and has chosen to screw us over. How much worse do you think it would be without the current EU legislation? I would argue that if our government isn't interested in these things then we clearly need more EU legislation to force their hand.

But that is what I am asking - if you are employed on a zero hour contract, pressured into waiving your working time directive rights, and trying to live on NMW how exactly is the EU helping you?

I agree it is down to our government so how does being in or out of the EU alter it?

@Jillyhilly

So being superior is the same as saying you don't care if your fellow citizens get bombed or shot?

I don't care anymore how people voted in 2016. I don't even care whether people hate the EU or not.

But when people are here with all the information we have about the border and they are still saying we should leave and the 1.9million UK citizens living in NI should suck it up then I feel perfectly entitled to occupy the moral high ground.

If it was made clear to me that remaining in the EU would have that impact, I would change my vote to leave.

It's called being a responsible citizen. And a decent human being

If they find a solution to the border problem then what risk is there to the GFA?

But they haven’t. And not from want of trying. Is that not obvious at this stage?

Border in the sea is preferable in my eyes but very difficult for the unionist population (understandably) who have rejected it outright.

@DecomposingComposers

But that is what I am asking - if you are employed on a zero hour contract, pressured into waiving your working time directive rights, and trying to live on NMW how exactly is the EU helping you?

I agree it is down to our government so how does being in or out of the EU alter it?

So your argument for leaving is that the EU has not legislated strongly enough to stop the governments we voted in from screwing us over?

Even if you are in the above position, you still enjoy the rights below, rights which could easily be taken away by a post-Brexit government.

Health and safety
Agency worker protections
Compensation for discrimination victims
Anti-discrimination laws
Parental leave
Maternity rights
Equal pay
Annual leave
Sufficient break between shifts

On the equal pay, The British government refused to incorporate into law the idea that pay should be based on value, meaning a woman doing a more valuable or senior job could legally be paid only the same as a more junior male colleague. The UK government amended this only after enforcement action by the EU Commission.

I expected flame throwing when I noticed the title..... I was not dissapointed.

Many employment rights are above EU minima already.

Maternity rights and pay are well above those mandated by the EU, so why would leaving mean they are automatically lost?
Many UK worker's rights pre-date and exceed EU ones.
If we remained in the EU there would be nothing to stop a future government reducing Maternity leave and pay provisons to EU levels.
There is no EU minimum wage - the UK could remain and abolish the Minimum wage.
It is a fallacy that the EU provides significant rights we wouldn't otherwise have.

Many UK rights predate and exceed EU minimums, yes. We should be proud of that. I am. EU regulations are more of a minimum floor we can't go below. A couple of decades ago, the prospect of losing that safety net wouldn't have been unduly concerning, since we were well ahead anyway. With the current bunch of disaster capitalists running the show, that's no longer the case. The safety net is being removed just when we might actually have need of it.

@familycourtq

I never said they would automatically be lost. I said that they would no longer be protected from government rollback.

Your rationale relies on your faith that no UK government will seek to remove these rights in the future. What I have seen from the Conservative governments and their thirst for capitalism at all costs leaves me very concerned many rights will be lost.

The agency workers rights were resisted by the UK and are likely to be rolled back if we leave.

In terms of Health and Safety, 41 of the 65 new health and safety regulations introduced in the UK between 1997 and 2009 came from EU laws.

The reason there is no EU minimum wage is because member countries (including the UK) don't want it.

@MerryChristmasHarry

The safety net is being removed just when we might actually have need of it.

Couldn't agree more

Pray tell. What solution?

A border in the sea?

How would that work, if NI and RoI have a land border?

There are solutions that either the UK or the RoI would like.
a) UK joining Schengen space and open borders.
b) RoI leaving the EU

WOULDN'T!!!

(that's what I get from editing only part of the sentence)

Because even if they reduce to EU minimum- that's still a ceiling they can not go below. Without oversight and controls they can do whatever they want, and that should concern everybody.
Example: Lots of brexit-y types want to bring back hanging, which is well and good, until you realise we'd have to leave the European convention of Human Rights- which protects your right to life, freedom from torture and slavery, a right to a fair trial and the right to participate in free and fair elections
Now, I don't believe personally that we'd lose the right to participate in elections, but who knows what could happen in 30 years time if we ate in the wrong people? Why risk it?

@MaximusHeadroom

Juells

But remaining in the EU doesn't guarantee peace in NI. If we stay the troubles could easily start up again (as they already are).

I didn't post that. I was quoting DecomposingComposers

And before anyone says it- I know the ECoHR is not the same as the EU. But it has been proposed that we get rid of it, too. And removing "other peoples" human rights also removes your own.

.

I voted Brexit for pretty much every reason the OP said.

I mean how much do you care about people in this country who are genuinely distressed and concerned - for a myriad of reasons - at the massive local cultural changes that have happened over the last 25 years?

Which changes, and how do you think that leaving the EU will prevent change? We've always been a country with a high inflow of immigrants contributing to cultural change, in many respects that is one of our greatest strengths. The sort of complaints I see from Brexiteers about cultural change tend to relate to high proportions of people from current and former Commonwealth countries in certain local areas, and obviously that has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

How would that work, if NI and RoI have a land border?

Why wouldn't it work? They want freedom of movement across the Irish border but the EU will have a problem with that if there is no control.over movement from GB into NI. By placing the border off shore there can still be freedom of movement on the island of Ireland but the controls are placed elsewhere. Isn't it only the DUP that has an issue with this solution?

As regards the ECoHR - where have we voted on whether to leave that?

If we remained in the EU there would be nothing to stop a future government reducing Maternity leave and pay provisons to EU levels.

And if we leave the EU, there would be nothing to stop the government reducing them below EU levels. Given the way employers tend to hate maternity rights and this government's history of putting its business friends' interests first, does anyone really have faith that they wouldn't do this?

By placing the border off shore there can still be freedom of movement on the island of Ireland but the controls are placed elsewhere.

So you have controls to travel within the UK?

I wonder why nobody used that solution...

But aren't our maternity rights better than those stipulated by the EU? So our government could reduce them and still be in line with the EU. So if we adhered to EU rules we would be worse off than we currently are.

So you have controls to travel within the UK?

What's wrong with that?

It doesn't matter if you care about NI or not, the fact remains your government has a responsibility to NI and citizens. They signed the GFA and can't just tear it up because it doesn't suit anymore. Whether you voted for Brexit or not, the border is a key issue that has to be resolved and accepted by all parties concerned. The UK government wanted to negotiate and deal with the issue of the border after everything was done, the Irish government refused because They felt That the border was too big an issue to ignore, the EU agreed. As far as I can see the UK government are all bluster, shouting there is other alternatives, If there is why aren't that revealing it? The EU aren't holding the UK to ransom, they just refuse to 'wait and see' what will happen with the border after brexit, they want it dealt with now, surely the UK government should want that too.