To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

If you think it's about hating people of different religious beliefs thistimeofyear then no, you don't get it. NI is becoming increasingly secular and even when it wasn't, the issue wasn't differing views over transubstantiation. There were strands in Irish republicanism arguing for secularism and disassociating themselves from the church whilst also advocating armed violence decades ago.

But when people don't understand, the onus is on them to ask and learn. Not use their ignorance as a tool to do further damage, as OP and various Leavers in this thread have done.

@thistimeofyear

Well MerryChristmasHarry maybe some of us can't understand why people continue to hate others who have different religious beliefs to them and who refuse to find a peaceful solution for their own country and/or refuse to "share" power with them.

How many times does it have to be explained that it isn't about religion? It's about history. It was happenstance that the planters who displaced the natives were of a different religion, so religion has always been a handy indicator of which 'tribe' you belong to. You might as well blame people's names. I don't live in NI, but I can instantly tell who belongs to which side of the divide by their names, and to a certain extent even by their features.

It's about the history of the conflict, not about religion.

Not just the NW @bellinisurge - I grew up in the SE and we had bomb drills as well as fire drills from primary school onward. Not to mention frequent bomb scares, and looking out for unattended packages on trains and the underground, let alone the actual bombs- the effect on daily life was constant.

Why is it depressing? The poster is being totally honest and reflects the reality that most human beings are largely only concerned about their immediate friends and family.

If that is honest and true, then it IS depressing. Also note other posters reminding us that the Troubles very much made themselves felt in the mainland British Isles (in fact it wasn't until they did so that the Westminster government started to take them seriously).

I mean how much do you care about people in this country who are genuinely distressed and concerned - for a myriad of reasons - at the massive local cultural changes that have happened over the last 25 years?

I've never found anyone able or willing to articulate convincingly or in an illuminating way what exactly is so distressing and concerning about 'local cultural changes' –by which I assume you mean things like people being heard speaking languages other than English/the appearance of shops with the temerity to sell Polish goods.

Why is it depressing?

Because my family live right on the border. They are fellow citizens of the ‘couldnt give a fuck’ brexiteers on here. If this all kicks off their lives will be horrific. I grew up during the troubles and I remember the reality of living like that.

But yes it’s obvious no one cares. It’s just verydifficult to square this with the distinct lack of benefits that brexit will deliver:

Who votes for their country to get poorer and for violence to kick off again? And for what? The blue passports?

@DecomposingComposers

Can someone explain the benefits of remaining in the EU then?

With pleasure. To name a few

1. Continued peace in NI
2. Workers rights continue to be protected under EU law regardless of how right wing our government gets
3. Protection from food imports from the USA and others which have far lower standards.
4. Proper information sharing on criminal records and outstanding warrants
5. Increased consumer rights so you are less likely to get ripped off and have better recourse if you do.
6. Countries in the East who joined the EU such as Croatia have become more economically stable and prosperous under their EU membership, bringing greater stability to the region.

Former director of public prosecutions Sir Keir Starmer states: “We rely very heavily on the EU criminal justice measures and when I say very heavily, I mean 24/7.

"I’m talking here about terrorism, people trafficking, cyber-crime, sexual exploitation, trafficking of children and paedophilia: they all go across the borders into Europe.”

The ability for member states to share information and coordinate responses, sometimes simultaneously in several countries, is vital to the UK’s security.

In 2012, the EU passed legislation to cap bankers bonuses. Who voted against it? The UK

You couldn't really find litter bins anywhere on the streets for a reason.

Yep. I moved to London in 2000 and then, and for several years after, there were no bins at Underground stations for the same reason.

NI absolutely affects the lives of people outside the region as well as inside it.

but it doesn't matter if the bombs do or don't return to London or anywhere else in the UK - it just fucking matters because it's shit for NI!!! It would be shit for NI without a bombing campaign! That's still saying "I only care when it affects me". It doesn't have to affect me in the least to give a damn.

And I care a lot about people who feel dispossessed or concerned about the changes that have happened in the last 25 years - I care so much I didn't vote for something that won't make their lives better and will probably make them worse. I fully understand that globalisation has left a lot of communities behind, that the trickle down economy is bullshit for many people. I blame successive UK governments for that. Personally, as it's crumbling anyway, I;d shit the seat of government out of London, away from the financial hub and more centrally in the country. Oh look, there's a bit city in the MIDlands - it's even called our second city. Let's stick it there!

@MaximusHeadroom

But remaining in the EU doesn't guarantee peace in NI. If we stay the troubles could easily start up again (as they already are).

EU employment rights have done nothing to stop the rise of zero hour contracts or minimum wage not being enough to live on, or enforcing rights for disabled workers.

What stops the UK and EU countries from continuing to share information about criminals and terrorists etc? Presumably we share information with US for example.

@DecomposingComposers I and others have already posted our perceptions of EU benefits upthread, but to save us both the trouble of searching back...

1. Peace in Europe - the founding rationale for a European-wide organisation was to promote tolerance, understanding and cooperation in a very small area with huge diversity that has always been riven by war. Immediately, peace in Nrn Ireland.
2. Ease and low-cost of trading within our local region of the globe. The thing to remember about trade is that WE NEED IT. We do not produce enough food here so we're dependent on trade. It's a damn sight easier getting most of our bulky necessities from the Netherlands than it is e.g. SE Asia or America. Also better for the environment. The low-cost is the result of everyone recognising that reality and co-operating to remove tariffs. Outside of the EU we will still need them, more than ever. We don't produce enough basic necessities ourselves: we have also been operating within that specialized economy for a while and cannot unpick supply chains overnight.
3. Being part of a large regional trading bloc means we have more buying power and negotiating power when we negotiate elsewhere in the world. Little Britain, half the size of some US states, deceives itself about the 'special relationship': the US is a foreign power and will take what it can from us. Russia and China, even more so. We won't be able to stand up to Indian demands for more immigration here, and Mercosur is a growing bloc. Sooner or later Africa will start to recognise modern reality and form blocs of its own too.
4. Similarly within that large bloc we can cooperate on much larger science and research projects than we can alone. We're not going to set up a GPS satellite system of our own for instance.
5. As part of that bloc we are significant on the world stage. We have a voice in Europe, and not the smallest. Many European policies have been set up to accommodate British interests. We can use that - we should be using that - to promote what're usually called 'British' values - fairness, rule of law, human rights, etc and also promote international cooperation on the environment. Outside it no one's going to care what one tiny wet island that can't cooperate internally and didn't even have the sense to secure its food supply is going to think. Outside it we won't even be able to pretend we have those values any more and we'll be another unstable tinpot little rogue state.
6. I like the influence from the EU of European social democratic states which are less misogynistic, more egalitarian, more educated

But remaining in the EU doesn't guarantee peace in NI. If we stay the troubles could easily start up again (as they already are).

They are because suddenly the extremists on both sides see an opportunity. The Loyalist side see an opportunity to have the border re-instated, and the Republican side see an opportunity to have a united Ireland. The EU and the GFA were what kept the peace.

@CassianAndor

but it doesn't matter if the bombs do or don't return to London or anywhere else in the UK - it just fucking matters because it's shit for NI!!!

I'm afraid that a lot of us have given up on the argument that people should care about the people in NI because it is the right thing to do and are now just trying to find a way to make people feel it may affect them personally in case it makes them care.

@Juells

But remaining in the EU doesn't guarantee peace in NI. If we stay the troubles could easily start up again (as they already are).

Nothing guarantees peace anywhere and I freely admit that the peace in NI is fragile. Which is why Brexit is so irresponsible.

EU membership enabled both sides to compromise over a lot of issues. Brexit kills the GFA and the peace.

But remaining in the EU doesn't guarantee peace in NI

Do you have no understanding of the significance of the GFA for the nationalist population and what dismantling that means for them?

What stops the UK and EU countries from continuing to share information about criminals and terrorists etc?

There will still be the sharing of information BUT not using the same databases, we will return to the old methods, so we lose the right to have instant access at the border or on the spot, so will have to submit a request to the EU for that information.

I believe one police force said they make 600 DB instant accesses every single day! they will lose that ability.

It is what being a 3rd country means, we lose the benefits of membership.

Not caring about the situation on the UK/Irish border isn't so much an indication of being an appalling person as being pig ignorant tbf.

Maybe, maybe not. It’s a viewpoint. Maybe this person doesn’t know about NI but knows and cares a hell of a lot about their local area. You are actually allowed to have that sort of perspective on life.

Anyway it’s a different point to the one I was making. I was reacting to a poster who seemed to feel that Brexiteers didn’t care about their fellow citizens. Remainers seem to be permanently congratulating themselves on how much more caring, nice, sensible and intelligent they are than Leavers. I voted remain and am largely surrounded by Remainers and even I am largely at the end of my tether with the constant grating superiority. It doesn’t help the discussion one little bit.

@DecomposingComposers

The EU hasn't stopped the rise of non EU immigration, and zero hours contracts, and lots of other things Leavers complain about (kippers on ice?) because these matters have always been the responsibility of our national government. Which, if you are a Leaver, is something you are supposed to like, yes?

LaurieMarlow

I don't understand though why leaving the EU ends the GFA? Surely it's the border issue that risks the GFA? If they find a solution to the border problem then what risk is there to the GFA?

so we lose the right to have instant access at the border

But what checks are made at the border? EU nationals just pass through don't they? So how are criminals flagged up when no one knows that they are there?

@BarbariansMum

Exactly my point. Those issues are the responsibility of our government so how does being in the EU change that? Being in the EU those matters remain the responsibility of our government so how does being in the EU positively affect workers rights?

If they care so much about their local area @Jillyhilly then you'd think they'd be more worried about civil war restarting wouldn't you? And "being allowed that sort of perspective in life" doesn't make it a less stupid one. There are plenty of completely self-interested reasons for anyone in the UK or the ROI to care about the GFA agreement breaking down, even if they skipped the collective empathy gene.

If they find a solution to the border problem then what risk is there to the GFA?

Pray tell. What solution?

Pray tell. What solution?

A border in the sea?

Because.of.all.the.other.EU.legislation.that has.improved.or.protected.them.over.the.years.

Working time directive? Maternity pay and conditions? Controls on pollutants?

They're not going to find a solution to the border issue that will be acceptable to all parties in NI plus the UK, ROI and EU. It is a circle that will not square.

Also, remaining in the EU doesn't guarantee peace, but both countries being part of the EU has been instrumental to the relative peace that has been enjoyed in the last 20 years. A peace that, since the vote, has been fraying slightly. Brexit isn't the sole reason for this, but do you think its coincidence? Really?