To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Sooze, any chance you would tell us why you hate the EU? No one's claiming it's perfect. What would you replace it with, and do you really think you'll get it out of Johnson?

@ForalltheSaints

'Thank you OP for being honest. Whilst there was always possibly 20-25% of the population who had well thought out reasons for not wanting to be part of the EU, I have my doubts about others.'

I totally agree with your statement but I think it works both ways. I've also spoken to many remainers who have no real idea for their reason for voting remain i.e.my husband/wife voted remain, my work colleagues say it's the best, I don't like the conservatives etc. I think both sides have voters who have absolutely no idea what they are voting for or the reasons why. I do think that the 'mud slinging' from both sides is ridiculous though. All leave voters are racist and thick, all remain voters are rich or do gooders! Both sides lied (it's what politicians do and won't change until they can be held to account). If you lie in court you'd be charged with perjury, it's a shame there can't be something similar for politicians! Maybe then they'd have to think carefully before opening their mouths and spewing rubbish.

AnnoyedinJanuary

Which is great in the case of an environmental disaster but conversely what if it had been refusing to sign for a less worthy cause? Would it be right for a country of 4.5 million people to block 26 other countries from proceeding with something in their best interest?

I still can't understand why we need the EU to have such far reaching powers over member states. What was wrong with limiting it to a trading block for example?

Thank you for your candour OP, I find it sad that now with politics everything is so polarised and sensationalised...

Can I say however that I find it worrying how few Leave voters considered how this would effect Northern Ireland and the border no border there and I would urge them to think on. That being said I think that the whole northern Irish assembly should be first up against the wall for their desolation of duty, how they haven’t been there for consrituaents make Westminster look efficient...

Is leaving worth the loss of Northern Ireland and Scotland?

I’m a pro EU, pro Union. each and every political institution has big problems, but what I don’t understand is why you felt these would be solved by attempting to go? Still our closest allies and trading partners so how much would be that different? I am also amazed that folk thought the conservative government would be fit/capable of making these agreements, far less in our (the peoples) best interests...

Lastly, although this is not metered at you, the ignorance of people just wanting to leave so its all over??? Which I’ve seen several times on this thread. That ignorance astounds me...

This is the worlds most complex divorce and it seems like the uk didn’t go to mediation until the last minute. The uk is not putting their children (citizens) either here or in the EU first second or even third...
To snub trade/ cooperation with eu is that typical male attitude of thinking it can all be done cheaper elsewhere and damnthe consequences. BJs nonsense to threaten to just go is the good for nothing father who ends up buggering off as his kids and being a dad is just to much like effort and bugger that he’ll just walk away...

And remember Sooze that health, housing,education and security are all Boris's responsibility, so in or out the EU makes no difference. Other than those things, what do you think will improve ? Oh and remember all that money Boris has promised is actually money that all those areas have had to save as direct result of austerity so not actual 'new' money, just the money they should have had but had to save and are now allowed ( allegedly )

You trusted what a politician promised.......how old are you exactly?

Just seen reference to a speech by John Major on another thread. He calls out how toxic this whole issue has become, and the damage to our country all the insults are doing. It's well worth a read whichever side of the fence you're on. Thanks for the thread, op.

www.johnmajorarchive.org.uk/2015-2/speech-at-cbi-annual-dinner-5-september-2019/

I have to agree with what a pp said about naivety - I absolutely don't condone any of the slagging off of the other side that's gone on, but I do think there's a huge amount of naivety out there, eg 'We were ok before 1974, we'll be ok again' etc. The world is so hugely different, and the UK so hugely different, I am flabbergasted by this. Were we ok? NI certainly was far from 'ok'. Education was pretty rubbish. I remember the power cuts. The UK has developed hugely in the last 40 years, while a member of the EEC/EU; is that a coincidence? The world is utterly and irredeemably globalised and ruled by the multinationals and their interests (another story); the idea that we will get our democracy back is frankly laughable - didn't 2008 teach you that it's money that governs everything, not votes.

I've read the history. But the people who live in Ireland must make their society operate fairly for everyone. It cannot be imposed from outside. I believed the GFA was a start and that 22 years on, it was established as a reasonable success if not the finished article. Clearly wrong.

Bloody hell, this makes me so sad. I would urge anyone who doesn't understand the troubles to do some of their own research on the GFA and the repercussions of it being at risk.

I just wanted to say readingreadingreading that I totally agree with your post and it was very well put - couldn't have put it better myself. You shouldn't need to apologise for voting leave - I am totally fed up with the aggressive remainers who insult us and throw their toys out of the pram (CUE ABUSE) I am sick of the biased media reporting of those arrogant MPs who think they are so clever to thwart all of the government's efforts to fulfill the will of the voting public. I actually see a lot of very selfish remainers who only care about themselves (their travel, their kids travel/work - which incidentally won't be affected anymore than travelling anywhere else in the world) CUE MORE ABUSE

OP, please could you give an example of something in your own life (that you personally experience in your own town, workplace or community) that is a problem because the UK is a member of the EU?

I believed, perhaps naively, that all Ireland was happy with the Good Friday Agreement and relieved the conflict was in the past.

Do you have any understanding whatsoever of how a hard border impacts what the Nationalists got and continue to get out of the GFA?

I mean obviously not, but just trying to prompt some critical thinking in you.

I'm playing devil's advocate here: What would happen one year on, or five-ten years on, if a no-deal brexit went through?

I live in a country still dealing with a really insane decision made back in 2016, btw, but it is fixable longterm. You don't know these things fully when they are presented to you, and you have no idea what the full outcome will be.

@keffie12 you do sound as if you know what has been going on politically. Few if us really do in a deep level. And you voted remain which must tell us something.

@thistimeofyear you really think that all the delay and difficulties is remainers fault? And that there is a good deal to be had?

@genius1308 I know why I voted remain. Because this is a very complex issue - the implications of which could be massive.

I felt the implications of leave were not understood well enough by me or the politicians. And I wasn’t going to pull the trigger not knowing what any damage would be.

It’s the onus on those voting Leave to have understood what their actions were going to cause.

Well done O P !! I'm with you . Don't let the stay in lot affect you . The referendum vote to come out should be adhered to as quickly as possible . Better still another stay or go referendum . Tho whatever happens somewhere someone will put a negative spin on it . I'm booking on to next trip to the moon .

Nobody who voted Leave knew what they were voting for, they couldn't have done because there were no details or hard facts. You've got to be a little foolish to vote for something when you have no idea what it involves.

This is a foolish argument in itself, no one knew for sure what the future would hold, whether we left or remained. For the record, I voted remain.

This is a foolish argument in itself, no one knew for sure what the future would hold, whether we left or remained. For the record, I voted remain.

well a dog on the street could have told you that the Good Friday Agreement was in serious compromise if there was a remain vote. So yes, I think on certain issues you could know for sure. And now you do!

@jasjas1973 @Longlongsummer thank you both for kindly responding. I have always followed politics. I am fortunate that I do have a mind, that is very quick thinking, analytical, can sift out unneeded information very quickly and grasp quickly what to be looking at, exploring etc. Work has also ensured I do that, so its engrained

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All regarding the N.I border which I know some about with the ex being Irish. It doesnt matter whether you care or not about the Northern Irish they are part of this country and have to be factored in.

Putting that aside you should darn well care cos even if you dont realise it, what happens in N.I can and has already spilled over to the mainland.

The Good Friday Agreement bought fragile peace with an open border as part of it. Whether it is illegal or not to put a hard border back is a grey area of the law.

However the troubles will and have already have started spilling over to the mainland again.

The "real" IRA have used Brexit as an excuse to start re-arming. Been quite a few bombings and killings again in N.I.

This will, and already has, started spilling over to the U.K mainland. There were 2 letter bombs sent earlier in the year to the mainland the "real" IRA claimed responsibly for.

I know this to be true having friends and family out there. Yes it will lead to more trouble here if this goes ahead.

Birmingham bombings, London bombings, Brighton bombings, Manchester bombings etc. to name a few of them.

Make no mistake it is serious this and it could end up hurting you. The Ireland problem cannot be solved and is one of the main facts as to why no deal Brexit cannot go through

I wonder if the EU has considered how it could make changes in how it selects MEPs .... I heard one astute and reasoned voice who was a breath of fresh air within the EU saying that ...it needs to look closely at why these events have come about and look to itself to change the way it is perceived and does business ...it is at risk of alienating several countries within its family if it does not acknowledge its faults .....
We have lost over two years ...where changes could have been made ..at some point one country or another would have taken this path... sadly it is us and now we have Boris! I do not believe the same result would happen now... but what is clear is that we have to make sure that right wing factions do not tear up the U.K. and that hate does not spread to our neighbours... in Europe and beyond ...

I honestly believe after discussing with many people that almost half of the leavers just hated Cameron’s arrogance and made a protest vote not believing that this result would ever happen....
I think we should take it back to the country and vote again .... those who say this is wrong ...need not worry if they are really convinced that the majority want to leave as they will still get the result that they want ....

I am a remainer and enjoyed reading your post OP. I respect your reasoning. It’s nice to hear it laid out in a non volatile, ranty way. You also made me think more about the initial vote. Why do it at all, if implementing the results of the vote was going to be this hard? It’s cost so much money. That money could have been spent on social welfare and improving lives. That makes me feel sick to read how much this is costing. It’s also brought the country’s political system to almost breaking point! It’s awful. I don’t understand why Cameron did it in the first place if a) he wasn’t going to stick and see it through b) there was no clear plan/knowledge on how to leave if that’s what the result was. They could have said “the results will be seen as advisory until we fully assess the impacts of the result”. It is really eye opening and distressing to see how much damage trying to leave the EU is causing. As a remainer that has caused me to think “wtf”. We shouldn’t have gone into the EU without a clear contract in place for the eventuality that we decide we want out. On a very basic level that’s just bad business right? I wouldn’t enter into a business agreement with anyone unless the contract stated agreed terms on what happens if either one of us wants out. It should be easier and much cheaper than this right? I have to question that if this process is this destructive then is it right that we even did it in the first place! It’s beginning to feel a bit like somebody trying to leave an abusive relationship. You don’t realise how bad it is until you try to leave.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not.

And this is why people like you shouldn't have a vote - educate yourself before inflicting yourself on others.

@Sooze58
And do you still think we should leave, even though you can see what the consequences for NI are?

I know I sound like a broken record and a lot of people want to ignore this issue, but if we were talking about putting the lives of people in England at risk of sectarian violence, Brexit would never have been raised.

But the people of NI are our people. Britain spent 400 years fucking up their country, left it in a mess for half a century and when the people there made massive compromises to bring about a peace, we have just fucked them again.