To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

@XingMing

Anyone who claims that every opinion is of equal value clearly hasn't read your gems.
I tried writing several drafts of "please learn what the conflict in NI is actually about" without sounding patronising but it is beyond me.

Please don't venture any more opinions about NI without doing just a bit of internet research. You are embarrassing yourself and being pretty offensive.

I've read the history. But the people who live in Ireland must make their society operate fairly for everyone. It cannot be imposed from outside. I believed the GFA was a start and that 22 years on, it was established as a reasonable success if not the finished article. Clearly wrong.

It’s the huge strain on schools, housing and the health system. Our population has grown massively in a very short period of time and we didn’t have the infrastructure in place to deal with it.

The Government knew the population was increasing, the Government was responsible for ensuring the infrastructure was in place to mitigate the demands placed on it. Did it do this ? The UK population has grown by approx 10 million in the last 50 years , this has been a ongoing upward trend as you would expect. Life expectancy has only increased by 10 years in nearly 50 years. The number of hospital beds has halved in the same time frame. Who is responsible for domestic policy and funding ? It isn't the EU, so who is responsible ? It isn't a trick question

You do know that the Government had control all along to restrict EU immigration but chose not to put it in place - if you come from the EU you need the following: 1 - medical insurance / coverage, 2 - a job or that you get a job within 3 months or 3 - enough wealth to keep yourself

Housing, health, education, security - none of these are the responsibility of the EU , the UK Government is responsible for them. So feel free to complain away if they are shit, but direct your understandable anger at the people who can actually make a change.

If you've read the history and you still think the description of the situation in NI as essentially a theological conflict is appropriate, you failed to understand it.

What Terry Christian said is spot on. Why should those of us who voted against this shitshow suffer and those who did vote for it,not?

For this reason I will no longer give my money to wetherspoons, dyson etc.
If the shit does hit the fan and we have a no-deal Brexit, I'd share my last bag of crisps/toilet roll/paracetamol with any Remainer . Leavers can get by on their 'freedom'

What do you mean XingMing that the people of Ireland must make their society operate fairly for everyone??? This level of ignorance is disgraceful. Do you know that the "Troubles" initially started as a Civil Right's Movement - rather like that going on in the US at the time, except in Northern Ireland it was religion which was the basis for discrimination not colour. Protestants often had between 6-7 votes per person based on their home ownership and if they owned a business. Catholics were not allowed to hold Civil Servant positions and were make live in what were effectively ghettos......and they could do nothing about it - they marched to make it fair and were murdered on Days like Bloody Sunday....... they tried to make it happen peacefully but the British Government did not / would not allow it..... so those who lived there did try - until the British Government introduced internment and basically helped to kick start the IRA - please educate yourself before making such statements with regards to the GFA - were it not for Bill Clinton and John Mitchell (both outsiders) the GFA may never have been signed.

I agree with OP.

There were/are sound reasons for wanting to leave that have nothing whatever to do with rampant nationalism or racism.

I share many of the concerns that moved her to vote as she did.

The circus that was the referendum campaign left no room for reasoned debate - debate that included listening to those of differing views with respect.

One other reason that moved me to vote leave was that I mistrust big organisations - they inevitably become detached from their membership and disgruntlement sets in - and big conglomerations of countries/states are, I feel, more likely to lead to another world war, as members feel obliged to back up other members even if they do not see it as "their fight." GB became embroiled in the second world war initially because they felt obliged to back up Poland. I know we were not in a union with them - but the principle is the same.

I feel for the fishing communities around the UK who have carried a heavy burden of fall-out from EU membership.

I mistrust any organisation that wastes millions travelling back and forth from Brussels to Strasbourg one week out of four simply because the French won't hear of Strasbourg not having its turn. Quite quite mad - and a reason to be fearful of the sort of conglomerate bureaucracy that cannot find a way to stop such nonsense.

There should never have been a referendum - it was set up for the wrong (party political) reasons, with no parameters as to turn out or margin and no dissemination of objective facts and references to informed opinion - just a circus. It would have been good to find a reasoned way of renegotiating our relationship with the EU, but successive PMs tried to no avail - that in itself is worrying, as it demonstrates the sort of inflexibility that characterises large organisations.

I also feel unhappy about France and Germany's domination of the EU - if any country wants to make a point or seek a change they do not go the the EU as a whole, they go and cosy up to these two nations.

The EU is flawed (like everything) and it is right that people should be able to say that in debate without being branded as thick or racist, which is sadly what is happening.

I feel very saddened by the polarisation of political positions that has arisen from this unwise referendum and am at a loss to see a way back from this.

@XingMing

*I believed, perhaps naively, that all Ireland was happy with the Good Friday Agreement and relieved the conflict was in the past. I think the appalling memories have been fanned back into activity. Several friends of ours put their lives on the line daily to defuse bombs in Northern Ireland from 1979 to 1995, and save civilian lives.

When I lived in the US in the 80s, where I stood politically was quite often the first question I was asked. My answer then would be the same now: all religion is primitive superstition, and I don't see the need for neutral peacekeeping forces to die keeping Serbs and Muslims, or Catholics and Protestants, from killing one another. Bring it to London, and I would want you hunted into extinction. I have no strong religious belief, so I just simply do not "get" why a different preference in style and format of worship should cause such hate. If I were a believer, I might say... it's all one God. *

Wow! Just wow. Actually cannot believe the ignorance of this.

The conflict of Northern Ireland has always been about political alignment , ideologies, governance and land borders. (HINT that’s why Brexit has dredged it all back up again)

Never truly about religion. They weren’t fighting about deities!!

It just so happened that MOST (not all) who fell in with a side that wanted to be governed one way happened to be a particular denomination of Christianity , and the other side another.

And let’s be clear your friends in the army were not neutral peacekeeping forces. Far from it. They belonged to the army of one side of the conflict.

London is not neutral to Northern Ireland.

London has been involved in Irish history for centuries by its own making and many would say it has been the CAUSE of all the conflict...London brought the problem to them originally and therefore has a RESPONSIBILITY to Northern Ireland and its people.

Therefore You and your family living in cosy safe London also have a responsibility to Northern Ireland whether you like it or not.

But I guess your kids lives are worth more than those living a few hundred miles away.??

And you can’t just get rid of the wee problem by giving it the flick back to Dublin

XingPing - you never heard NI mentioned as as issue - what news station were you listening to / watching? Reporters were almost daily in NI along the border asking what would happen / how it could be resolved..... speaking to people both North and South of the Border

Colourlessgreenidea - don't know why you think France will vote out? Far from it - EU countries are looking for greater integration. France had the opportunity to vote LePen into Power and didn't take it and now...... they may not be 100% happy in the EU but they recognise the need for it..... and would never subject their Country to what the UK is currently going through - that's true Patriotism rather than Nationalism which is what England is suffering from at the moment

We, the UK, revoke during the Bake off final and swear never to mention it again in polite company MissHappening ? If they did one of those public information films and we all went to bed saying ' well glad that's all over and that sponge rainforest was amazing' , I mean how much better would the world be ?

I haven't managed to read the entire thread yet but I voted leave and I agree with the OP, so extend thanks to you, OP.

I was pleased to be offered the chance to vote in a referendum and had decided to vote leave before campaigning began. However, I was finally swayed not by any Leave campaigner but by the campaigners for Remain promising me repeatedly that we would be "leading from within" if we stayed. I suppose now if you see the bus promise as a "lie" then this was the Remain equivalent. I couldn't square "leading from within" with our staying outside of the Euro and the Schengen zone. How do you lead something if you're on the periphery and your population AND politicians are hostile to joining the full EU project? I kept hearing Remainers arguing that we already had the best deal but it sounded very negative, essentially "we have the good without the bad....at least we have escaped the worst parts of the EU". I also noticed a lot of people on Facebook groups (if that is any indication) and real life arguing that they were voting remain "because I don't like the EU but we can leave later". I felt if even supporters of staying were that negative then we were storing up big future trouble by remaining. Of course, everything looks messy now but we have no way to rewind the clock and play out a Remain win scenario to see if it would have been any more harmonious. All I will say is that I don't talk in real life about my vote because, surrounded by vocal remainers, I feel intimidated into silence. The nastiness and division promoted by many on that side has been terrible, essentially cultish.

I mistrust any organisation that wastes millions travelling back and forth from Brussels to Strasbourg one week out of four simply because the French won't hear of Strasbourg not having its turn. Quite quite mad - and a reason to be fearful of the sort of conglomerate bureaucracy that cannot find a way to stop such nonsense.

That's an interesting reason, as for centuries the annual progress was a feature of the monarch's court in England. It was to enable the monarch to dispense justice around the country and to get to know it a bit. Many of us in different parts of the country would welcome the chance to get Parliament out of London for similar reasons! Regarding the cost, there comes a point where you have to think that the concept of state means nothing if large parts of it are routinely ignored - identity will not hold.

France and Germany are not the only countries in the EU: Britain itself holds a fair amount of influence by itself and can easily talk to other members to gain lead, such as the Netherlands and Sweden. I do think some people in the UK have no idea how negotiation among many different views and perspectives works in practice, largely because we don't have it here in the UK. We have steadily increasing top-down control and I have no idea why they think this is going to decrease outside of the EU.

That's the key point really: far too many of leavers' rational reasons are not, not, not down to EU decisions, but to British government decisions taken in Westminster. This has been said many times and generally ignored. Including the impact on fishing, the influx of European immigrants, and the influx of non-European immigrants (which will continue and probably increase).

What @AnnoyedinJanuary said.
Plus, @XingMing, do you understand that a large portion of NI is 💯 Irish, not British, living in part of the U.K for fairly inglorious historical reasons! Another large portion feel even more British than the Hyacinth on here? They are both in this shitshow of a position because of GB history so don’t try to shrug it off.

Literally, by not giving a shit about constituent parts of the UK, yon Brexiteers are doing what the EU Brexiteers do ignoring member states! But worse! EU haven’t willingly thrown their members under the fucking bus!

*the Hycacinth Bouquets on here

*what the Brexiteers think the EU do
MUST NOT POST WHILE TRYING TO WATCG THE NEWS

I've read the history. But the people who live in Ireland must make their society operate fairly for everyone. It cannot be imposed from outside..

And yet it was. Through international intervention and help, compromises made by the Republic of Ireland (whole different country from NI - you seem to be confused about this) and Great Britain involving referenda to change the Irish constitution, the appointing of a special US envoy to NI etc the people of NI were able to get into the position where they could move bravely toward peace. and it worked pretty much. Until the british thought 20 years was plenty of time to sort out 800 years of conflict and treaties aren't binding anyway are they?

the level of ignorance on this site about NI is unreal - politically, geographically, historically. As an irish and US citizen, I know more about the wars of the roses than many british seem to know about a recent civil war in their own country.

Since you have absolutely no compassion for your fellow citizens who live in NI, maybe you should concentrate on what it is going to cost you in increased security? maybe an old google of costs of the Troubles to GB? Maybe that might move you?

Ok - many people have asked why it is better to be in the EU than out - let me give you one example. A few months back the EU agreed a free trade agreement with the South American Countries. Fast forward to when the Amazon starting burning and the nutcase of Bolsanaro ignored it and did nothing....... Trump could care less - Putin could care less - nothing was being done..... then Ireland a country with a population of 4.5 million people - a country that does not and never will go to the G7 - a country which on its own is insignificant - came out and said they would not sign the Free Trade Agreement unless the fires were dealt with...... and because the Free Trade Agreement needs to be signed by all 27 EU members - and without those 27 signatures the Free Trade Agreement would not happen - suddenly a tiny insignificant country like Ireland can have an influence on the world stage for matters of importance like this. France followed saying the same thing and then action was taken. That's why the EU matters - because when they speak as a voice they have to be listened to. It's the largest trading block in the world, which works through compromise and discussion - and with Trump and Putin right now - isn't it important to have such a block and isn't it more important to be a member??

Pallisers - thank you - couldn't have said better!

@XingMing, your deep ignorance is absolutely shocking.

Late to the show with your cult reference Petra . What is a cult?, what is cultish about facts? or are facts cultish by your definition ?
Remember that no-one on here thinks the EU is perfect or beyond criticism, which doesn't really gel with the whole 'cult' theme. Cannot see the veneration or devotion needed for cult status, a lot of people just think there should have been some sort of plan before asking people what they wanted or that someone should have at least spent the last 3 years or so working really bloody hard at coming up with a plan.

You have said everything that I believe and why I voted leave. I have hated the EU for many years so the campaigning for the referendum did not sway me at all. Fed up of being told that I did not understand what I was voting for!!

It's the largest trading block in the world, which works through compromise and discussion - and with Trump and Putin right now - isn't it important to have such a block and isn't it more important to be a member??

Well you’d think.

The UK better hope Putin plays nice. Lol.