To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Bunsygirl

My point is that our problems are not so much to to do with migration but are because we do not train our workers, do not provide the infrastructure we have needed for decades.

When my DD was born 19 years, there was not enough midwives, what have we done to change that? nothing at all.

Why is it the UK attracts so many migrants from the EU?

We are lax, we have no ID cards, anyone can be anybody! a non contributory benefits system and most importantly a poorly trained workforce, making it easy for EU workers to find work.... these are our own failings, brexit changes nothing.

Are the Remainers happy with waiting 9 hours in A and E? Lack of decent homes to rent? Homeless sleeping in doorways? Closure of Mental

UK in ability to train our workforce, UK prioritising tax cuts over public services.... Johnson wants to cut higher rate income tax, not address the very real issues you have raised BUT nothing to do with the EU.

Our membership fee is repaid many times over by increased and easy trade.

Considering all of europe experienced life under the real Nazis, not sure your description of the EU is completely accurate.

We don't 'vote for laws' anyway OP we vote for members of parliament and the european parliament.

You say the 'EU are getting too big' and countries are too varied to have a common purpose. I'm not sure how different our purposes can be?! We're all human beings with the same basic needs. It's not like other member states are silicone based invertebrates from Venus that need human blood to survive. Whatever Farage may have inferred. The point of the end of the second world war was thay we rediscovered our common humanity.

Not all of the 52% are racist or unintelligent but some of them are.

Many voted leave because they thought it would mean that we wouldn't have any more "foreigners" in "their" country - despite the fact that many of these said "foreigners" are actually British. People have admitted this.

Many, whilst not unintelligent, don't have the skills to check the source of their information. They believe what they read in the newspaper. Or what the bloke down the pub tells them. Or what they read on social media. And let's face it, the Leave Campaign was built on lies (it's been taken to court regarding this), lies lots of people believed.

The UK has ALWAYS been able to restrict the number of people entering the country, whether from the EU or elsewhere but it has chosen not to do this (no idea why - maybe it's because we need these people for economic growth). Thus the numbers of people entering the UK are not set by the EU but by our own government.

I remember life before the EU too. I remember applying (and paying) for visas in advance of your trip (none of this let's pop over to France to do some shopping), queuing up at borders to have your passport checked, I remember the limited range of foods available - unlike what is in the shops nowadays, I remember waiting weeks to get a spare part for the washing machine or car (instead of point of need service that we now have engendered by lorries being able to drive across Europe and into the UK with minimum delays).

The EU isn't about making every country that is a member the same. If you travel then you'll know this. I've been to almost 40 countries around the world, many of them European - and they all have their own flavour. They have their own public holidays, their own foods, their own customs. We haven't had EU regulations foisted on us - we still maintain our own identity - and if you drive around the UK then you'll see that varies from area to area too. Our MEPs (who we have voted for) have agreed to the majority of EU laws because they actually protect us - from substandard foods, from employers taking advantage of workers, from having to drink contaminated water or breath polluted air, the benefits are enormous.

As for the money we would save because we wouldn't have to pay the EU - do you really believe it would find its way back into the economy? This government has had an austerity policy for the past ten years - people have moaned about it, signed a few online campaigns but not done much else, most have just accepted it - partly because the government has beaten them down so much they don't have any energy left other than to survive day to day. They're not going to change now - this money would go into the pockets of their banker and business friends.

You know, people keep saying we won, get over it, things haven't changed. And yet the referendum was over three years ago. Of course things have changed. The world is different now; we also know more about what Brexit would mean to individual people, to their lives, businesses, etc. Nobody really had any idea before because nobody had investigated this scenario in any detail.

The fact that the government won't release the results of Operation Yellowhammer (ie: the impact of a No Deal Brexit) really does speak volumes and should be sending alarm bells to everyone … because if there wasn't anything to worry about then why hide it?

Op I agree with you 100%

The federalising ambitions of the EU have been there from the start albeit played down. Maastricht and Lisbon have stymied our ability to self govern and even Remainer M.P.s have admitted half of new legislation, rules and codes were imposed by the EU without our being able to push back or amend them.

A global elite pushing a Common Purpose type Socialist agenda was embedding itself ever more deeply into law, government, institutions, culture, education and the media. A good illustration of this is that a state educated younger generation was so ill informed that it literally could not find the evidence or form the arguments to imagine not being part of the EU or to know and discuss what was wrong with it.

The eurozone, by 2019, was in the doldrums generally but in crisis in Greece which was treated abysmally by the EU after the financial crash and will probably take decades to recover, if it ever can without devaluation. Both Greece and Italy have had non elected, undemocratic, bureaucrats imposed by the EU to take the place of elected ministers.

The corruption of the EU was so monumental that they could not get their accounts signed off for years on end and the EU, in conjunction with Goldman Sachs finagled the Greeks in such a way that it led to their financial downfall.

At the time of the Referendum EU arrogance was such that they were openly planning an EU army.

The EU has refused to accept referenda which resulted in member states leaving but made them, like the Irish, go back and vote again until they came up with a satisfactory result. This is what they are trying to do to us now.

On a recent BBC programme about the behind the scenes EU Brexit meetings, a prominent EU office holder said on camera to a colleague, laughing, that the aim was to make the UK a colony.

The EU benefits some groups disproportionately, for example, French farmers, and has severely disadvantaged some of our traditional livelihoods such as the fishing industry.

I could go on. There are so many examples which have been reported over the years of EU skulduggery but which no one seems to have seen, remembered or understood. We joined a group to trade but it has been like crawling into a lobster pot and we cannot extricate ourselves from an entity which has salami sliced our law, government and independence.

I wish to belong to a democratic country where laws are made by elected representatives, not imposed by abroad to suit others. We can vote out fools or villains under our own constitution but the EU imposes by dictat, rules made by unelected and secretive officials.

I believe in truth and freedom, neither of which are served by the EU gravy train.

We are better than them and can Govern ourselves. The rediculous money it cost us each month to the EU should go to ourselves and improve the life of people living here. No we leavers are not Racist or stupid, quite the contary, we have opened our eyes and seen what is falling down around us! Are the Remainers happy with waiting 9 hours in A and E? Lack of decent homes to rent? Homeless sleeping in doorways? Closure of Mental Health Departments etc etc etc Our Country is not coping with the influx of immigrants and money sent abroad to those EU Nazis !!!!!

Everything you mentioned is the fault of the government we (as in British voters as a whole) voted in. Immigrants for the most part are young and healthy and don't use the NHS (they have to pay a fee for access to it anyway), and the government could have, at any time, curbed even EU citizens arriving here. they choose not to
Leaving aside your ridiculous comparison to the nazis (I really suggest you visit the Imperial War Museum holocaust eshibit or a real concentration camp and educate yourself as to why that is offensive), do you honestly think that this current government will use any extra money from leaving the EU (for the sake of argument we'll say that we end up with a net gain, which we won't) for the plebs benefit? Because if so, you are deluded.

As it was so neatly put in the commons yesterday- you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.

The federalising ambitions of the EU have been there from the start albeit played down. Maastricht and Lisbon have stymied our ability to self govern and even Remainer M.P.s have admitted half of new legislation, rules and codes were imposed by the EU without our being able to push back or amend them.
We had a veto. Which now we don't. And since no deal is off, we'll still have to abide by those laws and rules, without a veto. Happy now?

I went through the arguments for and against like you. Many of the issues appeared marginal at the time.

The EU benefits some groups disproportionately, for example, French farmers, and has severely disadvantaged some of our traditional livelihoods such as the fishing industry.

Well, Farage could have helped fix that, had he bothered to turn up to fisheries committee meetings.

I voted to remain because like others I felt things could be resolved from within.Ive learnt alot more about many of the reasons people chose to vote leave and this has just reinforced the decision I made was the right one.Many of the reasons are problems caused by the UK governments.Some have been proven to be untrue.I live in France now and am very close to the problems that leaving is causing.Many retired people having lived here for decades find themselves concerned about being able to afford to stay.Can you imagine having your life turned upside down like this.?The easy procedure of leaving is proving to be completely untrue.I am saddened that the politics in the UK is such a mess.To me it seemed such a risk when it wasnt necessary..I hope people understand that many millions of UK and EU citizens lives will be affected by this.For us we live and enjoy our life here but will have to worry about our rights to remain in a time we were supposed to be enjoying Early retirement.I wish to UK well and it will always be my home country but I would like to see a time when we begin to understand that we are all part of one big globe just all trying to live and survive as best we can.The world is becoming insular and its very sad to see

I voted remain, however I was very much on the fence, my reasons for leaving would be,

• Europe wants ever closer political union, which I disagree with
• having a massive area with the same currency doesn't work, it bankrupts the smaller, less well developed countries (eg Greece). Germany can't bankroll the rest of Europe forever, but has to. It only works in the US as it's all the same country so the richer States don't mind bailing out the poorer.
• A European police force. Look what happened on the streets of Greece.
• increasing numbers of countries joining the EU that are going to be bankrupted by it
• massive amount of money wasted every year by the EU, not just moving the whole government frequently between two countries, but that seems particularly wasteful.
• the rules that we follow that other countries ignore (eg on giving contracts to large engineering companies, France prioritises their own companies, we followed the rules and caused job losses in the UK)
• the EU doesn't have any financial accountability, it has never had it's accounts signed off.

There's a few of my reasons, and whilst I voted remain, I'd probably vote leave if there was another vote. Non of my reasons are to do with immigration, if free movement continued that wouldn't bother me personally.

I try and avoid all discussion regarding remain/leave now, everyone always gets personal, especially on here, but it's nice to see a thread that has some actual discussion rather than just mud slinging.

It frightens me how much power the institution that is the EU has over the member states and the fact that posters on here, almost gleefully, are now saying that other countries have been scared off trying to leave having witnessed the UKs efforts scares me even more. Why is it a good thing that countries are cowed into accepting the EU, no matter what, because there is simply no way of leaving?

Thank you for the polite response - good to have a discussion that doesn't involve name calling.

Ultimately though the EU IS it's member states - of course each state has to compromise some things but ultimately there is no army - no state can be held against its will as the UK is proving - if we crash out on the 31st October then there'll be no army to stop us.

In the end member states can all decide to leave but they will naturally look to the UK example as to whether they're likely to be better off or not. It's hard to think that anyone could look at the UK now and think "I want us to be like that." I don't see that other countries are "cowed" from leaving. I'm a bit puzzled as to why the UK being worse off for leaving (if it is) is an argument against EU membership.

I just don't see what laws the EU is going to make that are going to be worse than a Johnson/Cummings government given more or less unlimited powers over environmental protections, health and safety law and workers rights. It might be different if we had PR and a written constitution and things like that. But when a party can have almost unlimited power on a minority of the vote and with the dreadful state of our political class at the moment - I have absolutely no confidence in their decency at all.

Ultimately, if people are very concerned about the political element, I wonder why we couldn't have just stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union without being members. It would have reduced our say in some things but almost all the laws we would have been obeying would be things like product standards where we wouldn't want to deviate much anyway. It would have given me the things I value in the EU and you would have escaped the things that worry you about it. But I suppose it's far too late now.

busyhonestchildcarer

Can you honestly not understand why some people, living in the UK, voted for what they believe is in their best interests, rather than voting for the benefit of ex pats enjoying their life abroad?

@XingMing

I have no strong religious belief, so I just simply do not "get" why a different preference in style and format of worship should cause such hate. If I were a believer, I might say... it's all one God.

Unsurprisingly, no notion, not the slightest glimmer of an idea, what the conflict is about in Northern Ireland.

I wonder why we couldn't have just stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union without being members.

I agree.

You say there is no EU army - you're right, there isn't at the moment. A friend's husband is in the Royal Navy. He is quite sure that an EU army will happen.

I appreciate and understand your viewpoint. I do have concerns about the one size fits all approach expected in the EU. We are all different cultures yet we are to treated as one. Interesting to read that Switzerland is watching UK's departure with a view to trade outwith the EU. Most voters I think don't really believe all that is said in any election, we all know they promise the earth and renege on their election promises 6vminths after winning. Brexit is really no different. We have all been sold a pup whether you voted leave or remain.

In June 2016, I was hoping we'd get a Norway style situation. With ongoing discussion (People's Assembly?) about how to further develop the exit. Then I would have stopped paying much attention.

I didn't envision May's red lines or the rise of the ERG.

Well said OP, your pov mirrors many on mn I should think.
The EU is dying and we just need to get out. Even if in the short term it's a mess, we weren't exactly in great shape before and a few months down the line, we'll wonder what all the fuss was about.
There are much bigger issues on this (also dying) planet.

@Juells, no, none and no sympathy with anyone other than those bereaved by the bomb makers. Not even a smidgeon. It is fervently to be hoped that one community will outbreed the other (and I don't care which) to achieve balance.

I genuinely don't understand how anyone is so lacking in awareness that they could write about Northern Ireland as though it's a theological dispute, and not collapse in a pool of shame as they type. The level of fail in Xingmings post is just abject.

The EU is dying and we just need to get out.

Isn't that what rats do in sinking ships?
And creating a hole to do it, so the boat sinks even faster.
That's the spirit.

Thank you OP for being honest. Whilst there was always possibly 20-25% of the population who had well thought out reasons for not wanting to be part of the EU, I have my doubts about others. What you have only articulated in a limited way is the kind of relationship you wish to have with the rest of the EU. I assume from your comments you would have wanted to have something similar to the Norway arrangement, an economic agreement without the political structures.

I hope you and no-one else ever wanted to see the present incumbent of number 10 and his disgraceful behaviour.

Most of the people l know who voted leave did so because they 'don't like foreigners being able to come in and get housing and benefits'. I've never heard another reason.

It would depress me too much to read this whole thread so I expect if I get a response it will be along the lines of 'RTFT'.
But I agree with everything the OP says. I am genuinely interested to know what remainers think is so great about being in the EU in the first place, if anyone out there can enlighten me?

ps/ I voted leave. My partner is Romanian and he also thinks we should get (the hell) out.