To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

^^But you don’t actually have an opinion on the NI border problem, so you say. As conveniently you’re not ‘qualified’ to sort it out.

You have the right to vote based on not having any opinion?’

No because NI has nothing to do with me, my life or my family’s lives. Seriously do you just want to argue for the sake of it? Does it make you feel the bigger person?
Uncontrolled migration does have a direct effect in where I live but hey I wouldn’t expect you to care because you probably don’t live in Kent... but I wouldn’t hold you to account for that because it’s your opinion

syskywalker ‘You have proven that you are no better than any other leaver’ what a nasty generic thing to say! Hatred of a whole group of people - there’s a name for that...🤔

@Keffie12

Good post.

I have always contended that art50 is flawed and that 2 years is not in anyway long enough to leave the EU, its a 10 year project, far more complex than HS2 and look how long and costly that is, funnily enough that looks like it will be scrapped.

No because NI has nothing to do with me, my life or my family’s lives

Wtaf. Doesn’t not getting the Leave you (think you) want affect you?

Uncontrolled migration does have a direct effect in where I live but hey I wouldn’t expect you to care because you probably don’t live in Kent... but I wouldn’t hold you to account for that because it’s your opinion

I live in London darling, where we have more than 2 immigrants per square mile and no objection to foreigners.

@readingreadingreading

"This is up to our government to do the right thing by those living here."

And do you really think they will?
My son is British (born to a British parent - me - who was born in the UK) and when we tried to register his birth with the UK authorities (from here in NL where he was born last year) we found the whole process much more expensive and difficult than doing the same with the French authorities (my son's father is French). The message from the French was essentially "welcome, French boy!" The message from the UK was essentially "meh, we'd rather you didn't bother, but we'll take your money anyway". UK expats in the EU and EU expats in the UK have been treated utterly disgracefully by Britain throughout this whole thing and I don't see it improving any time soon.
Nobody thought about us. We're collateral damage as far as Leavers are concerned. People who voted to Leave seem to think it's completely OK to f**k up our lives. Forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic towards your noble cause.

@AmIRightOrAMeringue is completely correct.

I have to say I agree with the view of @DarlingNikita but thank you for your post - which I found rather refreshing.

Will you vote in the next election?

Scratch many a Leave voter and you find someone who basically doesn’t like immigrants.

Many of the migrants who make it to Kent aren’t from the EU anyway!

@tatiana - I’ll leave it there as you are obviously one of ‘those’ remainers who think insulting someone is your right. I voted because it is my opinion and democratic right ‘darling’. If it makes you feel superior to name call then fill your boots sweetie..... good evening

Kit 19....it’s not about taking in unemployed people. It’s the huge strain on schools, housing and the health system. Our population has grown massively in a very short period of time and we didn’t have the infrastructure in place to deal with it. DN’s went to a state Catholic school and it put a massive pressure on the school who had to deal with significant numbers of children who didn’t speak English. I chose to send my children to a private Catholic school as a result of this because they insist that every child is fluent in English before they can start.

Trying to leave is a mess mostly do to our internal politics.
I think we can blame ourselves as much as the EU at least.
I’d like to see a snap election before October 31st. It would basically be a mandate to stay, go, or accept the deal on the table.
Cameron gave us the referendum and Clegg the fixed term parliament act. Two lavishly educated men who were far less clever than they believed themselves to be.

I voted remain but it is far too simplistic to dismiss those who fear mass immigration as ignorant people who are afraid for their jobs and to claim that the people coming in are only doing jobs British people don't want.

All governments have encouraged immigration because, the truth is,immigration depresses wages by providing more competition thus meaning that the lowest paid in the resident population have a lower standard of living. If there are plenty of people who will work for the minimum wage, be they immigrants or locals, there is no need to raise the wage to a proper living wage.

We often hear about how the nhs couldn't function without sustainable immigration and I, for one, am very grateful for the care given across the nhs and in care homes ext by staff from doctors to care home attendants and every other level.

However I have one question which is never answered satisfactorily by those who cite the need for high levels of immigration to sustain staffing levels in the nhs. This is the question ...why are we not training more of our own? These are not minimum pay jobs with no career pathway which the resident population don't want.

As far as I can see the truth is that it is cheaper to import already trained staff from poorer countries rather than provide more training facilities for our own people. If Romania and other similar countries can train their own and export them to us ...why can't we train more of our own. As a teacher I have seen plenty teenagers with appropriate qualifications unable to get on courses for nursing, physiotherapy, radiology ext.

I don't blame those from poorer countries with the appropriate qualifications moving country to achieve a higher standard of living. Hasn't that always happened with emigration from here to the new world who were desperate for the right people to populate it. But back in the day they didn't have enough people to train for essential services. Now they have a points system which means only those in shortage areas are allowed in.

The present system here is unsustainable. When the children of those who come in as doctors, nurses ext want decent jobs, if we continue this way, we will deem it too expensive to train them. They will have to take zero hours jobs ext, topped up with benefits while we import another generation of qualified people from poorer countries.

I mention this because it is easy for those whose own jobs are not in danger to criticise those who want a points system ext for immigration as racist. I have no personal axe to grind because my particular profession is not threatened but very often the legitimate concerns of those on lower incomes are dismissed racist and those who vote out as ignorant.

Well put it this way, people who voted leave voted also voted for things they didn't quite understand the consequences of.Those of us like myself who voted remain will suffer those consequences of their actions including a likely recession.

What Terry Christian said is spot on. Why should those of us who voted against this shitshow suffer and those who did vote for it,not?

It's well known that the leave campaign was built on a whole stack of lies.

I know my view is going to be unpopular but if we do end up in a no deal situation and with a recession I only hope leave supporters are going to be able to bear the weight of blame placed squarely on their shoulders.

Everyone had reasons in their own mind - however something incredibly complex was whittled down to an overly simplistic question - leave or remain- without anyone actually having any clue what it meant so people like Farage and Boris could say ANYTHING they liked without consequence- their campaigns were aimed at a certain demographic but no not everyone who voted leave are thick or racist.

Doesn’t anyone find it against the grain of sovereignty that an unelected prime minister is running the show for leaving where sovereignty is one of the touted reasons no one can argue with? It’s all frankly become tedious. Something which potentially impacts everyone - most importantly financially - has reduced otherwise intelligent people to apathy. The hardliners on both sides are left running the show to the detriment of all- matters which impact on our daily lives are being sidelined for this politically and and by way of government funding- this issue has already cost the tax payer billions - and what have we achieved ( remember the shipping contract without any ships) ? all money which could have been spent on schooling, nhs and policing.

BunsyGirl

Cornwall hasn't had much in the way of any migration, yet we have exactly the same problems in schooling, primary care and congestion.

The UK has not invested in infrastructure or training, my DD will enter the NHS owing 50k despite being in a sector with huge shortages and will earn, tbf a pitance, an Australian hospital has offered her a job already.... more than double the money

From everything the govt has said, we will have less eu migration and more, much more from the ROW, how this will work out in terms of integration and culture is another matter.

YABU. Everyone gets a chance to vote and no-one really wants to listen to political opinion thereafter, Red or Blue, Leave or Remain. I voted Leave but realise I might have made a mistake. The EU is deeply flawed, the single currency especially so, but I now think it I would rather be part of it than outside. Also I do think a large proportion of that 52% are thick, racist or both and I am neither; just occasionally getting things wrong.

@MrsBadcrumble123

No because NI has nothing to do with me, my life or my family’s lives. Seriously do you just want to argue for the sake of it? Does it make you feel the bigger person?

No. It makes me really really sad that even accepting that Brexit with or without a WA is likely to leave to an end to peace in NI, you just don't care.

62 children under 18 died in the troubles. Alan Jack was 5 months old when he was murdered.

But since they are not your family or friends they don't matter. Just as long as you get whatever version of Brexit you believe you are going to get.

Right now, the ROI and EU are the people actually protecting the peace process and protecting the people of NI.

Good job since so many of their own countrymen and women don't want to

It’s the huge strain on schools, housing and the health system. Our population has grown massively in a very short period of time and we didn’t have the infrastructure in place to deal with it.

The Government knew the population was increasing, the Government was responsible for ensuring the infrastructure was in place to mitigate the demands placed on it. Did it do this ? The UK population has grown by approx 10 million in the last 50 years , this has been a ongoing upward trend as you would expect. Life expectancy has only increased by 10 years in nearly 50 years. The number of hospital beds has halved in the same time frame. Do you see where i am going with this ?

No because NI has nothing to do with me, my life or my family’s lives.

I suspect that is about to change.

No insults Badcrumble, just perhaps unpalatable truths.

I voted because it is my opinion and democratic right ‘darling’

Except you didn’t have one on NI as it didn’t affect you.

Night!

Thank you OP, I am like you and agree with your views.

jasjas1973 I have no problem with immigration but it needs to be based on our need for specific skills. We should not be taking in significant volumes of people for jobs that could be undertaken by those already residing here. My kids go to school with children of first generation immigrants from across the World. There is absolutely no problem with regards to integration and cultures.

@GrouchoMrx You think expats want no deal? Are you serious? Do you know any?
Everyone I speak to about it is extremely concerned by this prospect as it would affect them directly.
What concrete benefits do you believe the Leave vote/a no deal Brexit will bring you by comparison?
Please tell me. I'm dying to know.

I’m sorry I haven’t read the thread but I only really want to thank the OP for putting their views out there in such a reasonable manner. I found them interesting to hear. It’s also the first time I have really heard many of those arguments. I disagree or am not convinced by most of them but respect them and wish I had heard them earlier and that the tone of debate on both sides had been this sensible. What a shame there aren’t more conversations like this. And what a shame you felt you needed to keep your views quiet when many people with extreme views felt confident to trumpet them.

@MaxHeadroom (I always loved that cartoon), to be honest, it never occurred to me to consider NI when I was reading about the 2016 referendum, nor I didn't see it mentioned, ever, as an issue.

I believed, perhaps naively, that all Ireland was happy with the Good Friday Agreement and relieved the conflict was in the past. I think the appalling memories have been fanned back into activity. Several friends of ours put their lives on the line daily to defuse bombs in Northern Ireland from 1979 to 1995, and save civilian lives.

When I lived in the US in the 80s, where I stood politically was quite often the first question I was asked. My answer then would be the same now: all religion is primitive superstition, and I don't see the need for neutral peacekeeping forces to die keeping Serbs and Muslims, or Catholics and Protestants, from killing one another. Bring it to London, and I would want you hunted into extinction. I have no strong religious belief, so I just simply do not "get" why a different preference in style and format of worship should cause such hate. If I were a believer, I might say... it's all one God.

Perhaps stupidly, I always thought the GFA would eventually complete Irish reunion given time. But I have no attachment to one faction over another, and none at all to the union.