To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

I read a lot before the referendum but remember very little being said about NI before and not much said after for a few months.
Most remainers I know voted for the status quo because everything seemed OK and reading about it was too complicated.
Then government took this advisory referendum and voted for it(all but 48 labour MPs but I'm happy to be corrected).
Then shit happened as our well paid representatives took up their sticks and stirred,and carry on doing so.
And now BJ is supposed to as for yet another extension,I would not be surprised if the EU this time says NON since after nearly 3 years we still can agree on nothing.
And stop blaming voters,it's so device, it's the MPs who took up the baton and ran and Campbell who kicked it all off.

Thank you op for a very sensible and calm explanation of your views on Brexit . As ever some Remainers on this thread can't resist the urge to sneer with contempt at your views and the inevitable chippy demands to educate yourself before voting , the airy superiority ,the snobbishness dressed up as exasperation. This demonstrates exactly why so many leave voters refrain from mentioning how they voted to anyone outside their immediate family .It's all very well to say you shoud be happy to defend your position but the sheer nastiness of the response ,the assumption that you are a racist, thick idiot, or possibly even worse Tory 'scum' makes silence the easiest way to avoid unpleasantness .

Thank you op for a very sensible and calm explanation of your views on Brexit

The OP openly admitted that she didn't consider the UK border with Ireland and the resumption of civil war in the UK when voting. She just has some thing of "won't they all just get along" as a solution. She says she clearly remembers the wonderful years when the UK was recovering from 2 wars in quick succession, rationing for years during the war and years after - and yet she has manged to completely forget the civil war in her country that ended in the Good Friday Agreement.

What on earth is sensible about her post??

God I wish the British would realise this was their civil war - and will be again. It is not an Irish problem (except in the sense it spills over). Is there some reason I am missing why the UK refuses to face its own very recent history?

Soyou voted leave because the EU is big and you don't like bureaucracy.

As for not going to war, we might not have called it being 'at war' but we did have the army on British streets regular bombings and shootings.

There were also refugee camps in Ireland for British citizens who were not safe on British streets.

I'm also old enough to remember travel before Maastricht (which btw id a lovely city, worth a visit) and having to declare things at customs, was it 1 or 2 bottles of spirit you were allowed to bring into the country?

Making sure you had insurance because you couldn't access health care like a local.

There were even limits of how much money you could take on holiday at one point.

I’m astonished no one has mentioned the EU army yet as a reason for leaving

Rightly so. There isn't one and there have never been plans for one.

Some European countries want closer military cooperation and they work on that. It has nothing to do with the EU, it's something they are doing freely as is their right. I understand the UK is one of them. This cooperation might well continue after Brexit because as I say it has nothing to do with the EU.

How things were in UK before EU is a very different place today. Rose tinted glasses?

I feel sorry for OP. She is getting slayed. I think many many of us didn't know enough of the details and impact to make a proper judgement. Look at OP's post as a prime example.

Fwiw it's only cause of Mumsnet that I am better educated on the whole debacle.

I’m astonished no one has mentioned the EU army yet as a reason for leaving

The odd thing is that people are terribly worried about this even though it hasn't happened yet, is unlikely to happen and wouldn't affect our lives if it did yet totally blase about the loss of real and vital workers rights which we know Brexiters have their eyes on. Outside the EU there is no mechanism that will prevent a Tory governement from reducing those rights and we know that leading Tory figures very much want to do this.

Why are Remainers supposed to be worried about non-existent or highly unlikely "threats" and vague statements like "EU wants to reduce national identities" (although it's never explained how the EU could do this even if they wanted to) yet our actual realistic fears (such as "being outside the SM and CU means that UK firms are likely to be cut out of EU supply chains due to difficulties over Rules of Origin") are dismissed?

I think many many of us didn't know enough of the details and impact to make a proper judgement.

This is entirely true but we've now had three years to be better informed.

People talk about healing divisions but how can it? Afeter a No Deal Brexit what are the debates going to be like on Mumsnet or with friends and family? When someone's lost their business or we've gone into recession how are they going to feel about Leave voters? The people who constantly put their feelings that "the EU is too big" or dismissed fears about borders with "they'll sort something out."

Do Leavers spend even five minutes thinking "What if the experts are actually right?"

And JC is not one. He’s a weak Lilly livered turncoat terrorist who slept with dianne abbot. Enough said.

Ouch!

If you could go back in time and change one of the major humanitarian disasters would you?
Go back and shoot Hitler? Further back and prevent WW1? Do something to speed up the Dark Ages? My guess would be not because it would leave an uncertain future in its wake, People hate an uncertain future.And despite many millions of people dying then, time moves on and things get better.
The same with leaving the EU. It will be just another event from history.

Someone else said what does Remain actually mean.
Stay in forever? Stay and reform it? Stay and try to leave before it all goes wrong ( because all empires fall apart eventually).

@HPFA

I think for me, my fears are around how little impact, we the electorate can have on the EU. Did anyone envisage what the EU looks like today when they voted to join the common market? In my view, countries within the EU are now so intertwined that, if things start to go wrong, separating won't be an option. The only option will be to join even closer - so a united states of Europe - in order to better control finances, common laws, climate change legislation etc.

At least with our domestic government we know that we have the potential to change it every 5 years. We don't have that same control over the EU, particularly if countries who are benefiting from changes out vote us.

We had an advisory referendum. The government at the time did not have to immediately trigger article 50 without very clear plans in place. Even before allowing the referendum they should have known the issues that the border in NI was going to cause. We, the people, were asked to indicate what we wanted. I do not see anything wrong with people voting for what they wanted. What the government chose to do with the results is where the problem is.

So many posts on here say that most issues that people attribute to the EU are actually down to our own government - so immigration etc. As a starting point, and while leaving the EU was being better investigated, why couldn't the government have addressed the reasons why people voted to leave if they are within the remit of the UK government?

It frightens me how much power the institution that is the EU has over the member states and the fact that posters on here, almost gleefully, are now saying that other countries have been scared off trying to leave having witnessed the UKs efforts scares me even more. Why is it a good thing that countries are cowed into accepting the EU, no matter what, because there is simply no way of leaving?

Leflic
For the avoidance of doubt I absolutely would go back and shoot Hitler and avoid the Second World War and the Holocaust - and risk uncertainty. And am guessing most people would do the same. Life is uncertain by its nature - the important thing is to try to do the right thing.
I also think leave creates huge uncertainty - have you talked to any of the 3 million EU citizens here or their families (nothing more uncertain than being a british kid whose Eu parent no longer has an automatic right to remain in the country they have lived for 20
Years)
And if you don’t like uncertainty then remain is the best option - it will be a decade of endless negotiation with us in a weak position - And expect to be hammered by the US and China when you go to then for a deal.

I still don’t get why people think there will be a war in Ireland! Do people really care that much these days to carry out actions like in the 80s? Who are these people that will start a war?

I would have already thought there would be strikes and riots but in reality there are a few lunatics in parliament square and some angry people in Twitter.

The OP has suggested as a sensible short term solution, trying to get a 2-3 year extension, so this whole debacle can be sorted out once and for all. It would take some of the hysteria out of the political arena, allow time for proper well thought out contingencies to be put in place, allow Government to concentrate on the domestic issues, which were always well within their power to deal with, regardless of the scapegoating they have resorted to. Do other leave voters on this thread support this idea ?

And despite many millions of people dying then, time moves on and things get better.
The same with leaving the EU. It will be just another event from history.

You seriously think this is a good argument for leaving the EU??? Do you think you might want to think again?

In all these pages we have had virtually no attempts to put forward the practical benefits of leaving the EU. Just a constant regurgitation of "It's too big" "it's going to collapse" - on and on and on.

You get upset when Remainers seem to imply you're stupid and I get that, no-one wants to be called stupid. But it seems to be you often use that as a defence when your ideas are challenged. When someone says "What exactly do you mean by the EU is too big? What effects do its rules and regulations have on your life? Are these effects so big that they outweigh the conveniences of the EHIC card and businesses not having to worry about expensive and bureaucratic procedures?" you just repeat the same stuff about EU army. And when Remainers get exasperated you say "see, you're calling us stupid" .

Please just think "Why do I think all the experts are wrong? What is my expert knowledge that allows me to dismiss all this? Why do I think the Irish problem can be solved when no expert on the border issues thinks this?"

I know I'm wasting my time. You'll all go "see, she thinks Leavers are stupid"

We managed not to go to war

Somebody needs a history lesson.

I would support a delay

why couldn't the government have addressed the reasons why people voted to leave if they are within the remit of the UK government?

Because they didn't and still don't care. Because it is far easier to blame a useful scapegoat than accept any responsibility. This was never about you or me or Fred on the street, this was always about power, who has it and how long they can keep hold of it.

I voted remain. The truth is the EU can probably not survive in it's current form. In order to stabilise the Euro the EU needs to start issuing joint debt (bonds) for all the countries in the Euro (we are not in the euro remember). This would prevent the problems of the European debt crisis where the value of Greece's debt fell dramatically compared to Germany's. If debt was issued jointly the Euro would stabalise but this requires closer union. The joint currency was never going to work without fiscal union and this is the problem. I am in favour of Europe though I think the 2004 expansion (when the northern european countries joined, Romania, Poland etc) was a mistake, but guess which country pushed hardest for that? Yep, the UK! We were also one of the only countries to grant northern europeans full rights in 2004 while nearly all the other EU countries waited until 2011. There are, and always have been, many steps we could take to reduce migration of EU nationals but it has not been government policy because of their positive effect on the economy. Blame the government! As for the EU army and conscription this is just scaremongering. There may perhapsceventually be some sort of joint military agreement as with Nato. Many Leavers call ask Remainers what they are frightened of with leaving the EU and call them snowflakes but I must say that it seems to me that it is the Leavers who are frightened like the OP. I think some of them are really scared of the EU because of the deliberate fearmongering by the tabloid newspapers and other media. The world has changed a lot in the lost 50 years and not everyone has kept up with that. Many changes, such as global warming, increased globablisation and the impact of electronic media do not sit well with some people, particularly older generations who grew up in a very different world. Leaving the EU will not transport us back to the 1970s and make it all magically go away. We need to tackle our mutual problems head on with cooperation and optimism. We need to be in the EU.

@Leflic

Having just visited Auschwitz, yes I would.

Anyway, let me get this straight, you voted Leave because you don't like uncertainty?

I feel sorry for OP.

I feel sorrier for the people that her vote has thrown under the bus.

@HPFA

Equally though, Remainers don't answer questions about what the future EU looks like. They just say better in than out. But what will it mean to be in the EU in 10 years time? How will it change within that time? What happens when a few countries can no longer afford to financially prop up the EU? Not that long ago, Greece was on the verge of bankruptcy with other countries not far behind. How has that been resolved? What happens if one of the other main players elects a less EU centric government? What implications does that have for the EU?

For me, it feels like the EU has acquired a life of its own now and is rapidly becoming unstoppable. A huge question that I have is how can a policy that suits a large economy (say Germany) also suit much smaller economies? That feels like, to me, a great imbalance of power. That smaller, less economically developed countries are being held back by larger economies. What protection is there for these smaller countries? The point was made during the crisis in Greece that it needed its own currency back in order to make decisions that would help lift it out of crisis, rather than be given hand outs by the EU but compelled to remain forever in debt.

I still don’t get why people think there will be a war in Ireland! Do people really care that much these days to carry out actions like in the 80s? Who are these people that will start a war?

There are still many people in NI who lost family and friends in horrible circumstances during the troubles. Currently the NI government isn't sitting because of disagreements between Sinn Fein and the DUP. Perhaps in a few generations the troubles will just be something in a history book, but we aren't there yet.

The people of NI have already done far more than most to bring peace to their country, and its patronising and offensive to suggest that their concerns are irrelevant.