To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

You claim that you don’t know if there is a “problem with immigration or not”. And that you’re not a racist. But you have only opposed the EU since Maastricht apparently- since we had free movement of people.

What do you mean by the EU is too big and burocratic? Too many countries? What part of the decision making process do you oppose?

Were you in no way concerned about the massive economic issues leaving would cause? Did you genuinely not understand that the economic benefits we get from the EU dwarf out net contribution? How could you possibly think we could easily trade and work with the Eu because we did before it existed 50 odd years ago?

Or if you were to be honest with us and yourself dont you think your post does betray some rather stupid reasons. And for all you say you don’t “know” if there’s too much immigration- you rather conveniently started being opposed to the EU following free movement of people. But of course that’s because you wanted more refugees and/or skilled workers (which the EU of course does not in any way prevent us from taking).

So yeah, I’m not convinced that you’re neither stupid nor racist I’m afraid

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not

You downloaded the Maastricht Treaty but didn't bother to do some research on this?

Random checkpoints as per dvsa standard

Who are you randomly checking?

I have never been randomly checked for anything.

The dept of health in Ireland has come out and warned about medication shortages. In fact Michael Gove has threatened to withhold medication from Ireland unless the backstop is dropped.

I'm with you 100% OP. I voted leave.

USA and China both have a number of trading agreements with the EU. They do not trade on WTO terms if you mean with no other trading agreements.

The EU are our closest trading partners for sound economic reasons and that is unlikely to change. It’s simply stupidity to pretend we will replace our trading relationships with Europe with China. We won’t.

I’m astonished no one has mentioned the EU army yet as a reason for leaving.

The US has been making noises about leaving the defence of Europe to it's own. That would presumably include lower cooperation or support within NATO. That means we need more local defence support. I'm not against the idea of defending our own and our allies - especially where geography dictates the latter.

On Ireland, Yeees... assuming that black boxes on vehicles (all??) can be enforced, does that include on all private vehicles that might pass the border, and what about the people? Enforced ID cards with chips? Inability to move around without them? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ireland / Nrn Ireland are now so integrated that people currently might cross the border several times a day? It's a fairly long border too.

Even if you are in favour of leaving, the idea that such closely integrated social, physical and regulatory ties can be severed overnight was always a fantasy. It would take years to disentangle - generations, when we're talking about families. That's not a conspiracy - that's simple fact.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ireland / Nrn Ireland are now so integrated that people currently might cross the border several times a day? It's a fairly long border too.

You’re not wrong. For some of the farming community it might be 20 times a day.

It’s simply stupidity to pretend we will replace our trading relationships with Europe with China. We won’t

Just why the fuck would anyone want to do this? It makes no sense on earth.

Lovely to see a brexit post that isn’t blasted.

I agree with you completely op.

Yes, there are also nearly 300 boarder crossings. You have houses in the north while their drives are in the south.

@ScreamingLadySutch you are as your user name. The Eu are our closest trading partners and best chance at prosperity as among other things it’s the worlds largest and wealthiest trading bloc. You could well agitate for lower tariffs for developing countries and many have been lowered in the past. Economics is complex as is development economics but broadly the sort of stuff we sell is bought most by developed countries. And countries trade most with others that are geographically close and culturally similar. Which for all the crazy protestations is Europe. And as for why Europe is growing slower - that’s what happens in developed countries.

The idea that leaving the EU will bring great prosperity as we will all of a sudden have a wonderful trading relationship with developing nations which will ensure a great economic future for both is simply a complete lack of knowledge of basic economics.

So your whole point is "I voted Leave because I was gullible"? Ok. Great. Thanks. I'm sure I'll be super grateful to you when your hysterical viewpoint has left us with no food. You're super.

Dress it up however you want; you and your fellow voters are the ones who have driven us to this mess. Your reasons are your own. Live with them.

Has any other country in the modern world voluntarily take itself out of a large and powerful trading bloc?

It’s interesting that op doesn’t mention Ireland at all. No concerns about the Good Friday Agreement op? What’s your solution to the border issues then which won’t cause violence and terrorism in a part of your own country that I’m sure you care so much about.

Or does that not matter because you’re so worried about the Eu getting too big since Maastricht (of course you’re certainly not a racist as you “don’t know” if immigration is a problem).

The US has been making noises about leaving the defence of Europe to it's own.

That was just Trump trying to shame/bully the NATO countries into hitting their 2% of GDP target for defense spending. He hasn't mentioned it again since it had some effect. He's also filled his cabinet with West Point graduates who have explained slowly and simply what a disaster that would be for all concerned, including the US.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war.

The precursor to the EU, the Common Market, was founded in 1957. Do you really think it was that much of an achievement that the European nations managed not to go to war with each other for a whole 12 years?

And lol at free movement between Canada and the US. There isn’t free movement of people and they have a free trade agreement called NAFTA. and Switzerland has free movement of people and goods with the Eu because they have a treaty in place that means they are pretty much in the same position as a member of the EU but with no say in the regulations.

But leavers are not stupid or ignorant. Noooo

so you voted remain to protect your own career and interests - seems selfish? I had hoped educated, intelligent remain voters would take a broader view. For me it was other jobs and associated wage deflation caused by uncontrolled EU immigration, the financial incompetence of the EU (ask their auditors), the political gravy train (ask the Kinnochs), the economic issues and unemployment in France, Greece, Spain, Portugal et al. Just that evidence that the EU workers' rights agenda is a smokescreen for cheap labour at all costs - welcome to your friendly local carwash - the gangmaster's wallet is that way.

Thank you OP for creating a more reasoned debate than usual on this one.
In the referendum there was a lot of ignorance around (on all sides) and a lot of lies being peddled.
But now you know

• anything other than the softest of brexits (which is unacceptable to many brexit voters) will bring back the troubles in NI ie

People will die

• different groups voted brexit for incompatible different reasons - politicians can’t get an answer because every version if leave is not what large numbers of brexit people voted for. Eg if only 3 million of leavers were racist (and the BNP once used to get 1 million votes) any Brexit which doesn’t harm immigrants is going to mean you don’t have a majority for brexit ...
• leaving will trash the economy for a decade at least and reduce young people’s opportunities (think you and I may be the same age - do you really want to inflict this on the next generation)
• and most importantly the Brexit side is run by liars. You didn’t know that at the time but you do now (read Dominic Cummings blogs of 2017 - he is proud he risked breaking the law and got the vote thru by lieing about Turkey). You know they promised automatic permanent rights to live and work In UK for EU citizens and have reneged on this

Whatever your views on eu sovereignty which drove your orIginal vote that isn’t what brexit is now. If we have a GE please vote for a sane party eg Lib Dem’s and remain at a referendum Thank you

Thank you OP for posting this. I learned something. I am a Canadian but DH is a UK citizen and had no right to vote.

We visit the UK very regularly. I have no right really to say anything but I will say that, sadly, there has been a distinct undertone of racism in some of the reasons leavers have explained to me. I hasten to add this was a very limited number, but it was definitely there.

@fluffedup we do have control over our own laws. We made these rules on state aid, together with the other EU member states, yes but we made them too. And for very good reason- state aid is generally very bad for economies both in that country and those around it. But it is still possible to give state aid in circumstances where it is merited and indeed that happens.

The EU really excels itself in these sorts of areas - banning certain forms of state aid creates a level playing field across Europe and removes barriers to competition. If we won’t play by the same rules we can’t expect to have the same access to markets.

As for the fishing nonsense, our government chose to auction off the quotas to anyone. We could have awarded them to local boats only as other countries do. And we have quotas because we massively overfished the seas. Not the EUs fault!

@Megthehen - well soon you won’t need to be concerned about unemployment in Spain as we will have plenty here. And there is no reliable evidence that EU immigration has depressed wages. I’m afraid they did not take your job or are they to blame for your low wages.

I don’t particulaly like Boris, but i want a strong vocal leader? And JC is not one.

I agree that Corbyn isn't a strong leader, but WTF makes you think Boris is one?