To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

If we have a problem with immigration, it was caused by our own government - not the EU.

I believe the same applies for many of the problems the EU gets blamed for.

It suits those in power to have someone/something else to blame for all the bad things.

I'm no massive fan of the EU, but the government has spent 3 years proving to me that I was right not to trust them with Brexit.

Any sensible deal would need a cross party negotiating team to work on it. With the current lot, that's highly unlikely.

I'm sorry but I think your reasons are too broad and general and not well informed.
You voted for something with no manifesto and no plan, with a huge amount of trust.

@LaurieMarlow

Has any other country in the modern world voluntarily take itself out of a large and powerful trading bloc?

Brexit boils down to this, for everyone but Brexiteers.

Sorry about my lack of paragraphs! Should have previewed!

I still don’t get why people think there will be a war in Ireland! Do people really care that much these days to carry out actions like in the 80s?

Short answer? Yes.

Paramilitary activity in NI has never gone away. We just don't talk about it anymore in Britain. Look up the murder of Lyra McKee in April by the New IRA.

I think that because NI now features on the news in Britain so little, it is easy to underestimate firstly what an extraordinary achievement the GFA was by all those involved and secondly, how fragile any peace in NI is.

The GFA fudged and smoothed over a lot of things to get both sides to agree and this was largely possible because a lot of areas of negotiation were under the EU banner so there was no need to define UK and Ireland.

The backstop will anger Unionists as it will align NI more closely with ROI in a pseudo Eu trading block and create a border between NI and Britain.
No backstop will anger Republicans as it will create a hard border between ROI and NI and align NI more strongly with the UK

NI has been under the same austerity as the rest of the UK and certain areas were very poor to begin with. The combination of poverty, the paralysis of Stormont and the uncertainty of Brexit with one side or the other bound to feel screwed over a deal or no deal is a perfect breeding ground for paramilitary growth.

All it will take is for one checkpoint to be attacked and the UK government will probably deploy soldiers to keep the checkpoint staff safe.

Imagine if you are from NI but consider yourself to be Irish and not British. You want to visit your family 3 miles away but will now have to take your children through a checkpoint manned by armed soldiers in order to do it.

Think this is unlikely? It is not unlike the events leading up to 30 years of violence in NI which only ended with the GFA.

@merrymouse

Sorry, I forgot to tag you in my answer to your question above

But what will it mean to be in the EU in 10 years time?

I don't know. Perhaps it will have been taken over by aliens. Perhaps circumstances would mean that there was an overwhelmingly obvious reason to leave. However, we can say what staying in the EU would look like now.

Leavers can't agree what leaving would look like next week, which is why we haven't left yet.

@maximusheadroom, I didn't ask a question, I was replying to trimummy3.

But what will it mean to be in the EU in 10 years time?

You can’t answer this in isolation, but geopolitically what I see is ...

Increasingly protectionist and belligerent USA.

Rise of super powers China and Russia. Ruthless, self focused, no friend of the UK.

In those circs I think staying close to the EU sounds sensible frankly.

That smaller, less economically developed countries are being held back by larger economies. What protection is there for these smaller countries?

And yet the EU smaller countries all want to be in it. Isn’t that a question for those countries? How is that issue addressed by the U.K. leaving?

@merrymouse
You're right. Apologies.

@Trimummy3,

I forgot to tag you in my answer above to your question about NI. Hope you can find it :-)

Why is it a good thing that countries are cowed into accepting the EU, no matter what, because there is simply no way of leaving?

You could have left, with a deal. You haven't, because the DUP wouldn't agree to the backstop, and Brexiteers didn't want the deal that was on offer. But as usual, it all becomes everyone else's fault.

Has any other country in the modern world voluntarily take itself out of a large and powerful trading bloc? Brexit boils down to this, for everyone but Brexiteers

We didn't vote ourselves out of trading bloc though did we Juells it is now a political institution not a trading bloc, and that is the heart of the problem.

We joined a trading club and it is now a political one.

Brexiteers didn't want the deal that was on offer

The deal on offer is not brexit. It would mean being tethered to the EU indefinitely with no way to exit, no country in their right mind would vote for this.

Battle lines have certainly been drawn, families split, friendships lost, work colleagues cold shouldered ..all because of this stupid vote we should never have had.

The ignorant rubbish I read from leavers, the pompous posing of remainers and the utter incompetence of our politicians just tells me that society will not recover from this debacle easily .

Even Jeremy Clarkson, as right wing a celebrity as you could find, tweeted the other day ' Can't we just forget this ever happened and go back to how we were?'

I completely empathise with that .

So you’re a No Dealer Greenpeace

Having read the maashricht treaty you should have realised that extrication would be extremely difficult. The EU always has been (but this was particularly visible in the way the implemented the single market andeuro before it was realistic to do so and how they have dealt with it since) self serving. The goal of the EU is increased integration and harmonisation (and a very 20th century belief that this will be better for all the countries involved). The EU hasscted in a series of no returns dealing with the problems it has created through convoluted and often harmful patching up instead of critical thinking and real solutions. The reason why it’s so difficult to leave is that they never truly conceived that anyone would want to leave and also didn’t care about the countries that may wish to and thus entirely failed to create a suitable leaving protocol. It was always going to be difficult to leave without a clean break (which in itself is difficult). Whether it’s right to leave or no is a different question but leaving and immediately transitioning into a free trade deal would be a miracle.

Brexiteers didn't want the deal that was on offer
Neither did remainer MPs - in fact the deal united almost everyone in their opposition to it.

That smaller, less economically developed countries are being held back by larger economies. What protection is there for these smaller countries?

And yet the EU smaller countries all want to be in it. Isn’t that a question for those countries? How is that issue addressed by the U.K. leaving?

Ireland has benefited greatly by being in the EU. I don't particularly like politicians, but I accept that Irish politicians are very good at negotiating, and getting the best out of whatever was on offer.

The UK, as has been pointed out before in this thread, constantly blamed the EU for things that were down to the British government. Certain newspapers campaigned against Europe for decades, drip drip drip of poison. The UK insulted other countries in the EU, non-stop, then wondered why other countries weren't bending over backwards to back them up and tailor special circumstances for them.

@GoodbyeRosie if people can’t get over their political difference the problem is them not the vote that brought it to a head. I could understand if we were talking about genocide but we’re not. No educated adult should have feelings that strong about the EU (whether they love it or loathe it). The strength of feeling for a political set up is in itself deeply troubling.

Greenpeace why would it tether you to the EU? The backstop is only a safety net to prevent a hard border in NI. The UK keeps saying they will be no need for a border and the technology will be in place. If the UK government are so confident that they have the plans to deal with the NI border why is the backstop an issue. It only comes into play if there is no answer to the border.

A film here from Peter Oborne, who voted for Leave but is worried by the current mess, on the problems for Ireland of a New Deal.

twitter.com/dionfanning/status/1169309541902770182

But don't worry, things will magically sort themselves out. After all, the Troubles did in the end "sort themselves out" didn't they.

We didn't vote ourselves out of trading bloc though did we Juells it is now a political institution not a trading bloc, and that is the heart of the problem.

That's the responsibility of your government. Ireland had referendums about accepting each treaty - I can't remember how many, six or seven. Denmark had referendums as well. Your government could have allowed you the same say. Irish voters turned down both the Treaty of Nice and the Treaty of Lisbon first time round, and ratified the treaties on the second presentation because their fears had been addressed.
In the second round, however, the arguments changed. The Yes side argued that Europe had listened to the Danish/Irish people and responded with legal guarantees, which were specifically on the themes raised by the No side. With the Edinburgh Agreement, Denmark would have four opt-outs in the fields of European citizenship, economic and monetary union, defence policy, and justice and home affairs. Ireland, on the other hand, gained guarantees concerning its military neutrality with the Seville Declaration after the Nice referendum, and on the Irish commissioner, competency over tax rates, abortion, neutrality, and workers’ rights after the Lisbon referendum.

Why blame the EU for the failure of your own government to give you a say?