To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Bluntly, the fact that the UK is overall a net contributor to the EU, second only to Germany, rather than a recipient, just holes your argument under the waterline.

Are any of you old enough to remember the UK abandoning the Commonwealth Countries trade agreement to join the EU? Perhaps not. Perhaps you don't realise these Countries still exist outside of the UK/EU domain, are doing very well for themselves and would be happy to trade with the UK

Hmmm yes after a very difficult transition for them. We lived in NZ when I was a child. We came back in 1975. The people we rented from moved to Australia because life was too hard in NZ.

I'll stick with Europe thanks, it's closer.

However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it

Nice idea but no Tory government will do that. They will put the money into reducing business tax, IHT and possibly fuel duty. Nobody will see the benefits of extra money. Most of the areas that have seen regeneration projects will see little EU flags showing that funding has come from the EU. The UK (England) needs saving from itself. Vote Tory, get disaster. EU money goes some way to mitigating it.

Maybe do some research into coffee and the EU. The view that is prevalent is the one that was spread by ukip.
It's much more complicated than that and much more to do with how quickly coffee perished and viable infrastructure.

But then of course noone seems to have a problem with tate and lyle processing sugar here thousand of air miles away from where the cane is grown.

Would I change my vote if I had a time machine - possibly. I still feel that coming out would be the right thing to do but that staying in would be better than the current mess.

Lastly: the largest economies in the world - USA and China - trade with the EU on WTO terms. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

You might not have noticed, but the USA and China are quite far away from Europe. In contrast, people have houses that would cross the EU/UK border.

Crispin Odey and Jacob Rees-Mogg literally put their client's billions where their mouths are and back Brexit. Trust these calculations are finely number crunched on complicated algorithms but they calculated Brexit is better for UK and will make us better off in the end.

They may well have calculated that Brexit is better for them, but it does not follow that their interests or the interests of their clients are aligned with the interests of the UK. It also looks as though they are shielding themselves from Brexit harm by setting up a fund in Ireland. I think your faith in investment bankers is misplaced.

I'm from NZ.

We sent our people to die over here. Both bloody wars.

Our people back home were still being rationed in the late forties, to the fifties to send food over here.

Then when the EU popped up, it was 'no, terribly sorry, don't you know, got a better offer'.

We're not forgetting that.

*China, India and Africa (and other emerging markets) are going to be more important. They are not as regulated and thus are more flexible and competitive. We need to be able to respond to them - Brexit, paradoxically, is about globalisation. UK trades more with USA than it does with Europe.

Lastly: the largest economies in the world - USA and China - trade with the EU on WTO terms. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?*

The US and China are rather larger than we are and have more power. We cannot trade with equal buying power with the whole rest-of-the-EU.

Lack of regulation is an easy, trips-off-the-tongue phrase that means lower safety, lower standards, lower wages. It's a race to the bottom. It also means lower environmental standards. Trading what we can in our local global region is more environmentally beneficial than trading for bulky essentials on the other side of the world.

Ok so a poster asked the following:

I still don't understand why there should be a medicines shortage. Will Europe refuse to sell them to us, or will refuse to let them enter

And another poster replied:

Tariffs. Manufacturers and suppliers will cease a business opportunity to put prices up and because we are out of the free trade area, it will be legal for them to do so

When asked if they were sure about the tariffs being applied under WTO the second poster responded:

No, I'm not. Happy to be educated..... No doubt licenses have to be purchased for certain drugs and they might not grant them on the same terms.... Or something like that

This kind of nonsense is all over MN. I read a lot of brexit threads but rarely comments as it’s pointless trying to point out all the misinformation and opinion presented as fact. No wonder people don’t bother to listen to “experts” anymore because everyone presents their self as one. And remain voters on MN are some of the worst for making statements that are pure opinion but presented as fact, yet have no irony in complaining about Leaver voters believing falsehoods.
The debate of brexit has gotten so ugly and polarising, no wonder so few want to talk about how they voted and enduring the pile on that ensues. The balance in any debate has simply been drowned out by the extremists on both sides.

Take responsibility for your vote. It was always obvious Brexit would have a devastating effect on NI, to anyone who has half an eye open on current affairs/the United Kingdom they live in. It WILL be a result of the dismissive attitude of Brexiteers.
It is not being a luvvie to not want farmers to go destitute in NI (and potentially ROI). It is not luvvie to not want paramilitary violence in NI. It is not being a luvvie to resent European friends being made unwelcome, the rise in islamaphobia since the vote and a rise in racist attacks throughout the country.

Thing is it doesn’t matter why you, as an individual, voted leave. Your answer is different to other leavers because neither side in the referendum was offering a unifying ethos. One person voted leave because they wanted to take back control (whatever that means), one person touts the propaganda of over regulated bananas, one person still believes the UK is a major player on the world stage, one person hates anyone that isn’t British and yet another was just pissed off with life and austerity in general and wanted to make a statement. Meanwhile remain rested on its laurels and just smugly called BS instead of forming a coherent argument.

The irony is this whole shit show could have perhaps been avoided if we hadn’t insisted on sending fucking UKIP representatives to the European Parliament and instead sent people interested in actually getting the job done. Farage gnawed on the hand that fed him till he got to the shoulder.

Perhaps if leave had focussed on the failings and corruption within the EU parliament (how many years did they fail to file their financial report?!?) I personally may have taken them slightly more seriously than them plucking random figures out if the air and developing a strange deafness to any questions looking to find any plan of substance.

I appreciate any thought out rational argument for people’s decisions but the fact is that you can only speak for yourself because the people who agree with you don’t necessarily actually agree with you. Neither of us have any idea whether the people you align yourself with are actually representing your views.

Very honest of you OP. Hopefully the uncertainty will be over soon & we will know what the future holds. I don’t think people would feel as strongly as they do if we simply left & got on with rebuilding what we’ve been left with as opposed to holding on & waiting to see what our future holds. My parents voted to leave for the same reasons as you, I feel sorry for the unemployed & the NHS I just hope we can survive this. Well we’ve got to haven’t we x

Quite frankly, the rise in the New IRA is fricking terrifying for those dinosaurs that can remember the Old IRA.

Please don't blame me/leavers for everything that has happened, or may happen. It may be a result of the vote, but it certainly wasn't the intended outcome.

What was your intended outcome? What did you think was going to happen?

@Hollycatberry I’m not an expert. And that is precisely why I did not vote leave. I do not know enough about the implications to make so big a change.

Did anyone who voted leave consult expert opinions?

Actions. Consequences.

Odey and Rees Mogg have made a fortune from the collapse of the £. Literally bet against their own economy and I wouldn't at all possibly speculate on the similarities to insider trading.
Oh and then set up HQs in Dublin, so as to still get the benefit of being in the EU. You know that benefit that the rest of us mere mortals wont get. Hardly betting on the UK.

Would I change my vote if I had a time machine - possibly. I still feel that coming out would be the right thing to do but that staying in would be better than the current mess.
@readingreadingreading
See, this makes sense to me. The current mess, or no deal Brexit, is the truly dangerous and self destructive scenario. An orderly Brexit would not have had the same impact on the wider UK or NI.

@Saddler

I agree 100% OP but you're wasting your time with the luvvies on here

A leaver like OP willing to have a sensible debate with remainers also willing to have a sensible debate is not a waste of time.

Personally I appreciate OP opening up a conversation and comments like yours are as bad as remainers (of which I am one) calling all leavers racist.

I'm not a luvvie. I am scared about the meds issue because I have epilepsy. I went to my chemist today to pick up my repeat prescription (usually three months worth) and I'm already only allowed one months supply now.

If I have a big seizure I could die, I've been close to it a number of times before.

I think this an example that reflects many of the issues remainers were and are worried about - with no plans in place we are at the mercy of hoping for the best.

I still don't make cheap shots about leavers being thick or racist because I don't believe they all are. I'm sure there are plenty of thick and racist remainers too!

Again, OP I appreciate you opening up this conversation. It's such a shame that the whole situation (online and IRL) has become a case of us vs them to the point it feels like a point scoring exercise.

As I say, it's not a waste of time discussing this but it is a waste of time name calling when it's one of the most serious political decisions we'll see in our lifetime.

The part of the medicines shortage that I understand is explained well in The Guardian. It is, like food, another 'just-in-time' supply chain system for time-critical components which will be held up by lack of customs arrangements and transport. We do manufacture some in Britain, but we've been operating in a specialised economy and do not even attempt to manufacture everything ourselves. The ability to do that won't appear overnight, if ever: ingredients still come from elsewhere.

There seems to be more to it than that though, which would require someone in the pharmaceuticals industry to explain.

Thank you for being brave enough to post this.

I don't think the EU is perfect by any means, but based on my own personal experience, including working in France and Germany pre-Maastricht, plus the fact that, on balance, our labour laws are better (for workers) with Europe to back them, I'm a Remainer.

Yes, we "managed" before the EU, but the world is very, very different now and I don't think we will "manage" anywhere near as well when/if we Brexit.

I still remember how difficult it was to get access to my wages in France and Germany, and to my UK bank account, just as an example. I remember the "low level" racism I encountered when I applied for jobs - the same "low level" racism I see all around me in the UK now.

The Internet had barely surfaced, never mind turned into the virtual infrasctructure it is today. If you don't believe me on that one, just imagine, for a minute, the Internet were to disappear overnight, including Smartphone access. How would you bank, for instance? How would you do your shopping, even if you only shop online occasionally? How would you do your job?

We hadn't had 2 major recessions; we hadn't had the Iraq Wars; we didn't have the Euro. Choice of food was much more limited. Flying was still really something quite exciting. People weren't living quite as long, and comorbidities were not quite as pronounced, so healthcare was different. We still had a nursing shortage, but nursing, teaching, many other professions, were still regarded as respectable positions. People hadn't yet seen through the bankers. 9/11, crucially, hadn't happened - if you look at so many of the major changes that have happened, in terms of security and cybervigilance, and I don't just mean taking your boots off at the airport, you'll see just what a catalyst 9/11 was.

And those saying they think the EU is too big - are you really saying you're going to be happy with a new status as the 51st state? No offence to any Americans reading, but the American way of doing things is very, very different from most of Europe, especially when it comes to education and healthcare.

This article explains much of the meds shortage issue if anyone wants to understand it more. A number of industry bodies are very concerned:

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/no-deal-brexit-nhs-crisis-staff-medicine-shortages-bma-unison-a9082186.html

I think you're right in saying that not all leavers are racists and bigots.

However, exclude the votes of the vile racists and bigots and you'd be absolutely nowhere near the slim majority you 'won' by.

So how does that sit with you?

Probably someone said this already but it's not the EU that made it hard to leave, it's the Good Friday Agreement. The EU has relationships with tons of countries at different levels of integration/reciprocity - the only sort of rules about what is possible are that you get the access that you're prepared to offer them, and that no trading partner outside the EU should find itself getting more generous terms than EU members. Really any level of relationship is possible.

If it wasn't for the Good Friday Agreement. EU integration wad the rising tide that supported the Union, Scotland as well but NI is the most important. Issues like nationality and free movement and NI republicans being able to vote in Ireland just went away because of the EU. And they dictate a certain minimum level of integration between the UK and the EU. It was possible to see this coming before the referendum but everyone forgets about NI, which is deeply bloody ironic given that the NI unionists might be the only people left in the UK that actually want to be part of the UK.

To the border issue..
Transport company has the pod/delivery note/s..enters reg and pods on database. Produces customs paperwork. Black box fitted to all vehicles passing over border doing customs and road tax check (Black boxes used for road tax in EU already). Stantions pick up black box as passes over border and matches it to database. Random checkpoints as per dvsa standard. One in "n" checks at roadside.
Road tax will be another thing that needs sorting. Plenty of solutions in use abroad. Combine the two?

Mark Carney says now that it won't be such a disaster as more prep has been done since his last report in 2018.