To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

The two largest countries in the world - USA and China - both trade with the EU on WTO Rules, so why is it so bad for us?

Because they are the two largest countries in the world. They can make their own medicine, have a wider variety of food options available.

We sell our goods to the EU for free. That means we make more money.
We buy things we can't make without a tarif, i.e. for free. That means things are cheaper.

Our economy is smaller and less diverse than China/the Us. For example, the banking sector made up a significant part of the economy, and this is dependent on free access to the European market.

So a PM who has lied to the UK public about, well lets be honest , just about everything. There is no new deal, or WA or alternative backstop. There is a bloke who just about got away with being a mayor, who says big words in a posh voice with floppy hair and an oddly fitting suit. Please can someone find whatever it is he keeps looking for in his suit jacket pockets, it can't have gone far, and it makes him look quite Benny hill like when rummaging for it.

This is our PM at a time of national crisis ? Seriously ? I mean I see his appeal as an after dinner speaker , you've had a couple of sherries and he comes on and does his impression of Wooster and its all very jolly. But be honest , statesman, diplomactic , pragmatic, moral, none of the words you expect to spring to mind do.

So many typos! Any one, privileged etc etc sorry!

Why does nobody look at the economics of this?

The EU is a political construct, called The Project.

The trouble with The Project, is that it is a top down organisation - harmonisation, regulation, tariffs.

The most ambitious part of The Project, is the Euro. Therefore, those governments are unable to use monetary policy and devaluation, to control their surplus and their debts. As a result money flows from the meditterranean countries, into Germany. The Euro is actually in reality, the Deutschmark and Germany battles with a huge surplus it cannot get rid of.

These things severely distort markets, adds huge costs and renders it uncompetetive. The EU is the slowest growing market in the world. And soon, it is not going to be the largest single market either. Why tie in to it?

China, India and Africa (and other emerging markets) are going to be more important. They are not as regulated and thus are more flexible and competitive. We need to be able to respond to them - Brexit, paradoxically, is about globalisation. UK trades more with USA than it does with Europe.

Lastly: the largest economies in the world - USA and China - trade with the EU on WTO terms. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

And ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. That Brexit is economically a good idea? MONEY SAYS SO. Unemployment is so low in the UK when compared to say, Spain or Portugal. Why? Foreign Direct Investment into UK in the last 3 years is more than Germany and France combined. Crispin Odey and Jacob Rees-Mogg literally put their client's billions where their mouths are and back Brexit. Trust these calculations are finely number crunched on complicated algorithms but they calculated Brexit is better for UK and will make us better off in the end.

Trust these calculations are finely number crunched on complicated algorithms but they calculated Brexit is better for them and will make them better off in the end.

There fixed it for you LadySutch ,

"We buy things we can't make without a tarif, i.e. for free. That means things are cheaper. "

These EU tariffs keep continents like Africa, in a colonial status. Africa grows almost all the worlds cocoa, yet receives 2% of its value.

Coffee (another African commodity) has something like 100 tariffs in the single market. Value add is totally stripped from Africa in these distortions!

This is disgusting and utterly wrong. UK has a huge opportunity outside of the EU, in potentially the largest growing emerging market there is.

Foreign Direct Investment into UK in the last 3 years is more than Germany and France combined.

Offs.

We have a very strong technology talent pool which, I am sure, could come up with a solution for customs without a physical border, if they were asked.

There are no two non-aligned customs territories that do not have a physical border. There are numerous experts on Twitter who have explained repeatedly that, at the moment, there is no way of protecting the integrity of the Single Market without a border. Peter Foster, the renowed journalist and expert has done some wonderful threads explaining the problems inherent on an Irish border.

This is like saying "there are wonderful medical researchers out there. I'm sure they could cure cancer if they really put their mind to it."

Sometimes I really wish we could have a No Deal just so people would start to face the fact that sometimes experts are actually right. But I suppose they'll just blame Remainers anyway.

To be fair on leavers, I think it was reasonable to assume that the government wouldn't suggest a referendum if one of the options wasn't feasible.

It's now very obvious that Cameron didn't think about the way the question was framed because it didn't occur to him that he would lose. He didn't care what the electorate wanted, he just thought he would repeat his success with the Scottish referendum and silence some Tory trouble makers.

He seemed to forget that he only won in Scotland by the skin of his teeth, and didn't seem to question how easy it would be to win a referendum in which he would rely heavily on the support of the opposition, or wonder whether Bozzer and Govester were on side. I suppose that is the kind of confidence you buy at Eton.

He therefore gave the electorate free reign to vote against the status quo, without bothering to establish what was supposed to replace it - and to be fair so did every other MP who voted for the referendum.

So here we are, 4 and a bit years after the only Conservative majority to be won in 25+ years and in a complete and utter mess. Conservative party in chaos, Scottish independence more likely than ever. Well done Dave.

@frumpety

It is the mystery of capitalism. What is good for me, is good for you

Great thread! As an expat living in a commonwealth country, I was appalled at the goings-on in the UK Parliament on our news last night.

What a complete shambles! Your representatives have no intention of making any transition a smooth process, with the end result, the UK public will be left in the lurch and feeling desperate.

Are any of you old enough to remember the UK abandoning the Commonwealth Countries trade agreement to join the EU? Perhaps not. Perhaps you don't realise these Countries still exist outside of the UK/EU domain, are doing very well for themselves and would be happy to trade with the UK?

The EU has been a fat cash cow for a limited few for far too long, with little benefit to those countries who are members and in need.

Had I voting rights in the UK, I would have voted to leave too.

If you don't want to be labelled as 'thick' then at least get your facts in your OP correct

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

52% of the British population didn't vote leave, it was 52% of those who actually bothered to vote. I think that for something so important, this should've been a mandatory vote like the Australian system where you're fined for not bothering.

I really respect the OP for this post.

I do not like how polarised the debate has become, with leave voters portrayed as racists and remainers as crunchy and naive. It is all so much more complex than that.

I voted remain but I do not love the EU. I think it is too big, too bureaucratic and too wasteful. It is subject to far less scrutiny than our national parliament and that isn't right.

There are things which come with being part of the EU which are sold as being progressive and brilliant but they aren't. I don't get why it's so great that anyone can come and work here. As far as I can see, it just allows businesses to to exploit people by offering terrible pay, terms and conditions since they know there will always be people willing to do the jobs. How is that a good thing?

People make very passionate arguments about workers rights and health and safety but our laws go way above and beyond the EU minimum. I was talking to a colleague recently about going on mat leave (currently pregnant with second DC) and she said "you're lucky, once we leave the EU there will be no such thing as mat leave" Actually the EU mat leave directive only stipulates 14 paid weeks at sick pay. In the UK we get 90% pay for 6 weeks and a further 33 weeks at sick pay.

Just a couple of examples of why I, as a remainer, can understand why someone would vote to leave. And I'm pretty fed up of all the leave = bad, remain = good (and vice versa) nonsense on social media.

@ScreamingLadySutch I think you’re my new hero!!

If only the shitty British media would get behind some of these facts we might gather some positive momentum and ditch the forever touted doom and gloom. Brexit is (well could be/have been) a great opportunity, it’s just a shame that ultimately our MPs don’t want it.

We have a very strong technology talent pool which, I am sure, could come up with a solution for customs without a physical border, if they were asked.

If you are confident that these solutions exist, then the backstop won't ever be put into practice and agreeing to it's inclusion is just a formality.

It's nice to hear from rational leavers.

Someone asked for pros about being in the EU. Has improving cooperation and preventing war in Europe been mentioned yet, as that was what it was set up for.

As pp said, trading without barriers in the global region has benefits. I count being part of a large heavyweight trading organisation in a world of large trading organisations as a large plus. As we're seeing, the UK on its own is pretty much at the mercy of the US. We're not really very important when China and Russia are on the march either. India can dictate terms to us on our own.
Improved ability to coordinate and practice in science too.

Similarly, the continued chance for a small island to have influence on the world stage as the focus of the world economy shifts back east. We are not - were not - without a voice in Europe, contrary to some opinions. Some of the EU's more questionable attitudes stem from British negotiations. I also include in that the chance to communicate with the rest of the world in favour of pro-environmental attitudes and initiatives (at least, potentially) - and demonstrate same.

For the UK I like having the influence and example of more socialist democracies with lower inequality and misogyny close at hand. Not only does it offer influence and ideas but direct protections too.

There are issues with the EU, of course there are. They're worth it, and anyway there was never, there still isn't, a plan to leave. The Ireland question is not easily overcome, it's why we and Ireland joined together in the first place.

You haven't noticed that the US and China are having a punch up about trade practices? It doesn't, and won't, stop. China wants to sell it's low priced products to the US's less well paid, and it's what they want and can afford. The US would prefer not to have its manufacturing sector undermined by cheap imported goods. Only the very very wealthy or the truly committed will stick to a purist line (on either side). The growing Chinese middle class and new money will buy US-made products, and everyone else will buy copies, as it is easy and cheap to reverse engineer anything. If you have been on holiday outside Europe, it's remarkable to see how many Chinese people are relishing other cultures via tourism.

More 'brave' 'patriotic' expats who would love to see us all in the quagmire of a no deal.

Such glee!!!

We have a very strong technology talent pool which, I am sure, could come up with a solution for customs without a physical border, if they were asked.

Magical thinking I'm afraid. Either that or it will require a gross invasion of privacy - like implanting microchips into everyone and everything on the island. Somewhere there has to be a point of communication showing that someone / thing has passed the border, and how are you going to do that?

However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it

You do understand rhe error in this now? That rhe money we pay to the eu, we take a lot more out, like ten times more out, each family in the U.K. will be several thousand pounds per year worse off, as we will trade on higher tariffs.

And that we will have high unemployment, meaning people paying less tax and benefits being stretched further, and what taxes are paid going to support the unemployed,

In fact rhe nhs will be crippled by brexit. This is a well known fact.

But what you've just said is I give the eu a pound, they give me ten back. I think I shall just give that pound to the nhs and they can keep their ten pounds. And millions of people can loose their jobs, and stop paying tax, meaning rhe state has to pay more of people's taxes to support them,

I'm guessing you're saying you voted thinking this but now know it's wrong?

Leavers are being asked, did you vote for this? are you happy now?
Of course not!
I didn't vote for this, I didn't vote for May or Boris (or even conservative). I didn't vote for people to die waiting for medicine to be imported or people who have been living here for years to be asked to leave and Ireland to be plunged back into war. Nor did I vote for blue passports.

Will all/any of this happen? I sincerely hope not.
Please don't blame me/leavers for everything that has happened, or may happen. It may be a result of the vote, but it certainly wasn't the intended outcome.

I agree 100% OP but you're wasting your time with the luvvies on here

I do understand however I wish people thought about the generations to come before voting. My DH family came here from poverty in hope of a better future and worked hard for this country in hopes of calling it their own. His family feels the country has tried to turn its back on them. However on the other hand why are we sending Millions of pounds abroad when our own people are living on the streets/using food banks? It’s a tough one but I admire your honesty. I do believe the majority of vote leavers did vote leave in the hopes of investing in our own country or the NHS as I’ve said it’s tough to look back and predict this when we were sold a dream. Can I ask, looking back now would you change your vote?

@readingreadingreading - agree totally. The only ones to blame for the way it’s going are the MPs, both British and European. Nothing to do with leavers or remainers.