Irish border in the event of no deal

[WankeyDoodle]

Genuine question.. what happens to Irish border in the event of a no deal? Presumably it would need to be a hard border because there's no trade deal? I'm struggling to understand the difference between no back stop with a WA and a no deal border.

TIA

There is a UK border in Ireland, not an Irish border - the Irish border is the beach. The UK border in Ireland was established by the UK, the vast majority of Irish people didn't want a border.

Missangrypants your comments are moronic. Ireland is very happily part of the EU, which partly exists to protect smaller as well as bigger countries and could not oversee something which threatens peace.

A hard border threatens peace as the Good Friday Agreement (peace treaty) allowed for free movement between NI and the Republic and agreed on parity of esteem for those living in NI who identified as Irish (affording them the right to have Irish passports) and those who identified as British. A hard border would clearly assert that one part of Ireland is British, and (post-Brexit) not in the EU, and therefore not Irish, so it takes away the rights of almost 50% of the population in NI. Add to that the considerable number of cross-border institutions that maintain the peace and ensure co-operative enterprises between NI and the Republic can flourish, thus embedding the peace.

Also, nobody really mentioned Ireland during the referendum. There was no bus with “what the fuck do we do about Ireland?” On it

Irish people mentioned Ireland! Brexiteers dismissed any fears about Ireland, and said there'd be no return to a hard border.

The Tories are propped up by the extremist DUP who say NI cannot be treated differently to any other part of the UK, and cannot have a different agreement. The only land border between the EU and the UK is in the Republic so w/o a hard border, there would be nothing to stop someone from the EU walking into the UK. And yet Brexiteers want to stop free movement into the UK.

Very very very big mess.

Here:
www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404
and here:
www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-explained-why-does-the-border-matter-and-what-is-the-backstop-1.3661518

I am nervous of how the Irish are being treated. I know that we don’t have to apply for settled status due to the CTA but I just see a Windrush situation in our future.

Is it the case that neither Ireland nor the UK can ever leave the EU without messing up the GFA?
(Unless they both leave)

I find it terrifying how glib some people are about the GFA being compromised, as though unrest is simply an acceptable by-product of our catastrophic Brexit shitshow.

But hey ho, the Irish government have seized their chance (for the time being anyway) to be a significant player in the EU negotiations instead of the minnow they usually are

It’s this strand of English arrogance that’s disgusted me most. Many Irish people had a lot of (perhaps grudging) respect for the brits before this utter fiasco. No more

So you can unleash chaos and economic uncertainty to my country, take no responsibility for your imbecilic actions and then insult us like this.

You can go fuck yourself frankly.

And you’re welcome to your absolute shit show of a brexit.

I am English and live nowhere near Ireland, but I do remember the 70s when the news was dominated by horrific news and footage from NI. This issue is the one that terrifies me most about Brexit. I can live (luckily) with price rises, and can hope that medications will be still available, but for the Irish border there is no answer, and for that reason alone this self-sabotaging idiocy should stop.

I don’t accept that as an English voter I had a duty to fully inform myself about Irish border issues before the referendum. I had already decided for other reasons to vote Remain, and hence I didn’t need to understand any possible problems that a Leave vote would cause for Ireland, or medicine supply, or the insurance industry or food exports or...

If there had been any suggestion that it was my duty to vote for Brexit because it would somehow solve the crisis of governance in Northern Ireland then yes, I’d have looked into it.

Ignorance is no excuse “lots of voters thought we’d remain in the single market.” Because UK had rode roughshod over the EU for years, thinking they were too good to be in a single market, refusing to comply with the single currency etc.

With all due respect people who voted to leave without knowing the full repercussions are fucking idiots and should be stripped of their right to vote on the basis of stupidity.

It was frequently mentioned before the vote, a number of people started threads on it here.

I think the main reason it wasn't picked up more by the media was the discussions about a Norway-style agreement; if there was a customs union it wouldn't matter. Many of us were still very concerned as there seemed literally no point in voting to leave then agreeing to the things necessary to keep the status quo but it just wasn't given the prominence.

It was discussed though, and as an Irish person living in the UK I pointed it out to everyone I spoke to. A surprisingly high number felt like 'something would have to be worked out' even when it was pointed out there was no way that was possible.

In the short term, I've no doubt attempts will be made to turn a blind eye. I would hope Johnson will throw the DUP under the bus and look at sea border options as frankly that wouldn't add much to what's there already for people: you need ID to fly, you don't need it to drive five minutes up the road. The people of Ireland are focused on minimising a terror threat on our doorstep and avoiding economic collapse as much as possible, but there is no public sentiment suggesting we leave the EU to make it easier for the UK (!) or roll over on this and trust everything will be ok.

Having a no deal Brexit forced on us short term is better than accepting the same awful consequences long term.

And actually to answer the OPs question in one sentence: a no deal hard border would be temporary and there would be an urgency on behalf of the UK to sort it out.

A withdrawal agreement that had a hard border would be long term, it would mean the Irish government and EU had set a precedent saying a hard border on the island was acceptable to them, something they cannot do while staying within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

Practically on the 1st November both options may look the same on the ground but there's a real difference legally and in terms of the long-term impact.

but there's a real difference legally and in terms of the long-term impact.

Agreed.

A hard border imposed even temporarily has the potential to cause political chaos in NI which could have long lasting consequences for the stability of the region.

I voted remain, one of the reasons being Ireland. I am so ashamed of Brexit and what the Tories are doing to Ireland. Its stupid, cruel and unnecessary.

Getupagain I second that. So ashamed.

As others have said, there needs to be an immediate hard border in Ireland. It will be the law.

Both trading under wto, or being part of the eu, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland need to legally protect their borders.

The whole issue with the back stop is that if in two years no alternate to a hard border is found it needs to go in. There is clearly no alternate now. The only land border between th U.K. and the eu, will be norther Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

So if we move to no deal, on the first of Nov the good Friday agreement will be broken and a hard border put in. There is simply no other option.

I still think a deal will be done though, something like if we don't find a solution in two years, instead of a hard border we will move to a customs union.

I don’t accept that as an English voter I had a duty to fully inform myself about Irish border issues before the referendum.

Which is fine, your choice. But it means you don't really have any reason to be unhappy now.

Incidentally, part of the reason the troubles in NI dragged on for decades, was because of people like you. And the governments they elected.

Incidentally, part of the reason the troubles in NI dragged on for decades, was because of people like you. And the governments they elected

I think this is not ok. The poster is a remainer. Any one who voted leave had a duty to educate themselves. Remainers didn't wish anything to change.

A hard border because of No deal will be temporary unless the UK want to be North Korea and stop trading with the world.
A hard border in a withdrawal agreement would be permanent
A temporary solution in a withdrawal agreement is a backstop

@Missangrypants so what is your proposed solution to the UK border IN Ireland?
Because any solution that has been offered to the UK they have refused. Any solution that the UK have put forward has been debunkdled as unworkable.
So enlighten us with your solution.

Do people genuinely believe that a ‘temporary’ hard border in NI will do no damage to the country?

Or do you just not care?

I voted Remain for all sorts of reasons and the Irish border issue was just one of many. I too am ashamed at the mess Brexit is proving to be and horrified by the consequences it's going to have.

Back in the 80s and early 90s I had friends in the Army who did tours in Northern Ireland. Kids of nineteen being sent out on patrol with a rifle, a target on their back. The thought of that happening again and all the associated pain on both sides is horrific. And for all that most people think the GFA was a fantastic thing, Lyra McKee's murder shows that there are people who will relish a return to the 1980s.

I constantly hear Leavers saying 'but I didn't think...' That's the problem. They didn't think.

I don’t accept that as an English voter I had a duty to fully inform myself about Irish border issues before the referendum.

This epitomises the weakness of deciding such complicated issues by means of referendum.

My first thought when I heard the result was 'what about Ireland'. It won't be the first time England has pursued policies that have a detrimental effect on Ireland (clearances, settlements, exporting food during the famine, direct rule ) but it just might be the last.

The US House of Representatives have been very clear that they won't be approving any free trade deals with UK who have reneged on the GFA

The GFA was as it happens a good example of how to use referenda to good effect. The details were hammered out between the governments, with a lot of support from other sovereign nations. Then, when it was crystal clear what people were voting for (or against) they held a separate referendum on each side of the border.

Perhaps the Brexiteers on here could explain to me how exactly we "take back control" of our UK borders if we retain an open border w the EU? How do we control immigration fe, if people can walk in via the Republic? Seems to me we'd be in a worse position rather than a better one.

And yes, what's all this getting cross with the Irish because the UK is threatening the GFA?

Finally, you missed out the rather important conclusion to that sentence because I’d already decided to vote Remain for other reasons
Obviously if you were going to vote Leave you should try to understand what the implications of that would be.