To think there comes a point where you have to walk away from someone suffering poor MH.

[WhatDo]

If they refuse to seek help?

It's a family member. They have suffered for a long time but believe it's everyone else with the problem rather than them and will not seek any help despite practically destroying their families lives.

My husband is particularly distressed now as are his parents. He tries so very hard and is always constantly pushed back, put down, ignored etc... I hate how this is affecting him and the rest of his family who are nothing but supportive of this person.

It's damaging the mental well being of everyone else in the family now. AIBU to think that no matter how much a person is struggling, there does come a time when you have to walk away, to save yourself and your MH from being taken down in the process and that it isn't selfish to do so providing you've tried as much as you can?

I know it isn't them, it's an illness but I don't know how much other people can be expected to take before enough is enough. I'm finding myself becoming extremely resentful which I don't like because I know they are suffering but I see how it makes my husband and I just want to scream at this person.

Ah right okay.

No you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

They may have mental health problems but that doesn't give them a pass to lash out at those trying to help. If anything it could just be their personality that makes them think it is acceptable to use others as a punching bag.

Your husband needs to give them an ultimatum as it's clear his own MH is suffering.

You aren't my dsil are you, op?? Seriously, this is my family but it's my dsis with long-standing MH issues. It's caused so many issues in my family and she just won't get help.

Its now sadly spilling over and I can see her children developing massive issues from having a mum (and their dad to a lesser degree) having massive issues bit just always laying the blame elsewhere. Recently my ds got dragged into the drama and that has been the tipping point. We've had to go NC with her and her family. I'm still going to support my parents while they deal with it all (I don't think they'd ever go NC because of the children) but for our own sakes, we need to stay away.

JustAnotherName, I'm sorry you're going through this as well.

H only has the one sibling so I can't be your DSIL! But I know what you mean about the children. They have children too and I can see that this is effecting them. I feel very sad for them.

It sounds horrendous. The thing is, having poor mental health doesn’t mean that this person isn’t an arsehole. They may well still be an arsehole even with good MH. If they woke up tomorrow mentally healthy would they still be using threats of suicide to get their own way? People do do that.

I’m assuming this person has actually been diagnosed with a MH problem?

I’m afraid, ill or not I’d walk away. Your poor husband 😕

@WhatDo, YANBU.
However, I think that saying your DH and his parents need to step back won’t go down well if it comes from you.

My advice would be to find a good counsellor/psychologist and ask for help on how to deal with that person to avoid manipulation AND doing the best to help them. Because the reality is that often people need to hit rock bottom before they realise they need help. If in the top of it, they’ve also learn that manipulation works to get them what they want (even if it’s unhelpful), then, of course, they are unlikely to stop.

Sounds like your husband needs help and counselling to me.

Your bil / sil is abusing you. Did you see the thread about the nasty colleague running atm? I posted a link below. I’m not saying the behaviour is same but there are similar traits with the manipulation and “it’s not me it’s you” from the abuser, who may or may not be mentally ill.

You cannot always help someone because they don’t want help and sometimes you have to walk away to protect your mental health and your children.

Dh has a very manipulative cousin, who turned violent like his father in his 30’s. He too refused help. We used to have a lot of time for him, gave him a job (which he kept for less than 2 weeks), gave him a lot of advice, listened endlessly to his woes, had him at our house regularly etc. He is a product of his environment. But we had to walk away once the violence started. He wanted to be dds godparent yet he has never met her.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3679623-to-find-this-friend-so-difficult?pg=3

I really feel for you. We've been through the same albeit through DH's siblings spouse. The amount of selfish, horrendous things they've said and done over the years is awful but it's all ok because of MH. In our case, I believe it's used an excuse for some horrific behaviour, the reason being we've never had any remorse or apology when they're well. It's all just swept under the carpet and we are expected to embrace them.

I probably don't sound sympathetic but I was, I had huge sympathy and offered a lot of help and support.

They've refused to get help and we've got to the point where we've disengaged and now it's a bit don't ask, don't tell. I felt very harsh taking that approach but it was really impacting on us and we just had to be selfish ourselves. It will be more difficult for you as it's a direct sibling to DH, I would suggest he maybe gets some counselling to help him.

My brother died last month, alone in his flat, he was an alcoholic with mh problems. We'd tried as a family for years to help and support him. It was impossible and so stressful, I've had counselling to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't help him if he wouldn't help himself. I feel guilty that I wasn't there for him at the end but I know that I did my best. He had to take responsibility for his own actions and he didn't.
Sometimes whatever you do isn't enough and you have to consider your own lives. It's not easy to step away when you love someone

In an emergency situation you are told to put on your own life jacket or get your own oxygen mask before your child or dependent. Your husband HAS to take care of himself first and he is not doing that currently. Not only is that unhelpful for his sibling, but also for you and your children. He has to sit down with a professional and talk about things I think. An easy version of this is a small exercise you could do together. He draws a medium circle in the middle of a page and then a larger one round that. Inside then medium circle he writes things he IS responsible for and then in the outer circle he writes the things he is NOT responsible for. Like his brothers behaviours and choices. Then he looks at things he spends time and effort on- and considers if these things are essentially in his control and therefore worth his efforts- or not.

If the school has a pastoral worker, the next time any suicide threats are mentioned I would inform the school.

Involving a third party is the charm, OP. It means that the situation is outside the control of the sufferer (it won't go down well, but there again when does anything) but it does mean that they have a much harder time justifying their behaviour to someone outside of the family and it can break the cycle for them a bit, as well as you.

The control aspect can be insidious, the way it creeps up on you which is why the third party can also be a help in just allowing you to step back and realise what is happening. When you are so close to the situation, it is harder to take an overall view. Even if the sufferer won't speak to a third party - you, your DH and their parents should, to get some validation that you are not the ones causing the issues!

WhatDo, I really sympathize with you. MH sucks. In my case it's my DH (recent Ex). He has a delusional disorder that makes me the problem. I have had to walk away because we were both going down fast because of it. Your post was a well timed read because I have just removed all of my DH's family from my FB account. I did this because I reached out to several of them to get help for us and not one of them helped. I think you are right that there is definitely a point where you have to walk away from it especially if you are not coping (as I wasn't) but the process of walking away shouldn't happen until some effort and support has been provided. Family is family and if family doesn't step up to help, then the MH sufferer doesn't have a lot of hope. Sorry if my post sounds resentful but I am very cranky with my DHs family at the moment.

Threatening suicide can be the sign of a personality disorder, not necessarily a symptom of depression.

Being an arsehole is not a symptom of depression. Most people with depression take it out on themselves, not others. They're far more likely to be abused than to dish abuse out.

Bad behaviour, histrionics, insults and threats are diagnostics for hysterical personality disorder - again, not mental illness.

OP, has this relation had a medical diagnosis? If not, there's no reason to believe s/he has any sort of mental illness.

The problem is that how long are people willing to put up with the DS problem before they themselves develop MH issues? This sounds like you have all been pushed to the edge. It's so difficult but it sounds like you need to now start looking after your DH's MH first. It's such a terrible situation to be in but now you need to act upon 'tough love'. The DS will not do anything to try and get help whilst she is being enabled to exist like she is. It's frustrating and I can understand why you are angry but why is the DS refusing to get professional help? It maybe that she thinks it's easier for all of her immediate family to run around worrying about her albeit to the detriment of their own MH. There is only so much a human being can put up with before they start going downhill themselves. I really wish you all the best OP - it's a very difficult emotional situation. (I haven't had time to read the whole thread this morning so apologies if I've repeated what PP have already said.)

Have you asked your DH what he would advise you if it were your sibling? Seeing it from another perspective might make him feel less guilty about it.

This sounds really hard Op - you have my sympathy - I suffer with depression myself - I grew up with a Dm who had MH issues too. I’m currently not in a good place due to fallout from extremely acrimonious divorce - the ongoing abuse still continues.

Just to give you an insight - I continue to post on here for support and to document my difficulties - I’ve had threads deleted to “protect” my MH - where I think I am defending myself against people telling me I am abusive. I had my account suspended for the same reason - I have recently had my latest thread blocked because I have been accused of posting under two identities because there cannot possibly be another person who agrees with me and so it must be me twice.

I have had & continue to have professional support - ( I’m not sure whether the person here has had any diagnosis - may have missed this bit) but I am continually told on here I need more help!

I’m at the point where I have little contact with my DF because I believe he thinks I should be over this period in my life or because I didn’t listen to his advice - not sure which - but I feel like I have been abandoned by him - his support was conditional?

My DB suffers with MH issues too - has been through a horrendous time - tried suicide - didn’t succeed - my DF’s view - he’s brought it all on himself! I supported him emotionall and financially during this period despite my own needs at the time

Currently the roles are slightly reversed - I’m the one with a greater need - he has made some very scathing remarks to me recently which has also left me wondering how much contact I want with him!

I have suffered “abuse” from my kids in the past - verbal mainly - I still get told to fuck off - they are about to head off to uni I’m going to miss them like hell but I’m also looking forward to the end of the triangle between them and their DF with me in the middle.

Their DF has played the suicide manipulation himself I believe - he dismissed his own Ds googling how to kill yourself at school as a schoolboy prank - as someone who has been asked the question do you feel suicidal - I do not know how it is possible to answer this question- yes I have had suicidal thoughts but I believe the action to kill yourself comes from a completely different place - in a moment - you are “sane” one minute but gone the next - this is the only way I can explain it.

I called the police on my X - I’ve also called the police on someone else - I’ve had the police called on me.

My x admits to a breakdown - even talks about it as part of his business profile - knows I have depression in that I am “twisted and unhinged” but refuses to acknowledge it. Infact I think it is him that has the more severe MH issues but these are not acknowledged because he is outwardly materially succesful in business and personal life.

I’m not really sure where I’m going with this - other than to say I dont think there is an easy answer - I’ve got to the point now where I’m thinking the only way I can be “well” is to remove all these people from my life and this is quite possible because I’m moving away soon. But there is also the possibility that I could be completely isolating myself ( a symptom of depression) when I’m at my most vulnerable.

I feel like I no longer know myself - I’ve got the thread printed out - I’m considering taking this to Women’s Aid for a professional opinion on whether I am abusive as so many are telling me.

My GP has continually told me I am not crazy every time I doubt myself - so I either have got this completely wrong or for all my life I have got this right but no one has ever believed me or completely understood. It seems like I can only truly rely on myself and I have to know who I am to the core!

There is two things I wanted to say - there is a term atrributed to not seeking help when you have M H issues

www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/key-issues/anosognosia

Every time I’ve had counselling I’ve been told I am extremely self aware

This is a good book www.amazon.co.uk/How-Survive-When-Theyre-Depressed/dp/0609804154?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Reading this thread what resonates me with me most is @speakout post and I say this as someone wth depression - maybe I learnt/ copied my own DMs patterns - as a coping mechanism f

I have suffered two bouts of extreme depression and PTSD - one where I attributed it to issues at work but had also recently got married. I went through a lot of counselling because I never wanted to end up lik3 this again.

I got through 6 rounds on IVF pretty emotionally intact

And second time know - this time could attribute my depression and symptoms to CPTSD - as I’m writing this it is dawning on me that there is quite clearly a link to both episodes!

I’ve heard someone refer to a mental breakdown as a mental breakthrough - at the time this resonated with me - there is still one issue in my life that is causing me confusion - maybe it’s this I need to deal with but currently I do not know which is the right path? Do we ever know which is the right path - that is the question - has our life been right or wrong - does it matter? - all we want is peace, love and acceptance but there is too much shit in this world!

Good luck x

This

i will never walk away. I do however safeguard myself. That I can control. I still have a claim to lead a joyful life. My son lives at home and I provide endless love, emotional and practical support, but I work to protect myself.
It is possible to do both these things
Keeping myself happy and positive is the best I can do for me and ultimately him. Having me join him in his dark place does neither of us any good

It is possible to support and love someone with mental illness

If we could all learn this without having our own insecurities triggered the world would be a better place!

I’m going to look up vocal

I’ve just read something that has set me off blubbing

I feel like I have got my whole life wrong but also right - does this make sense to anyone - I’m not sure it makes sense to me

@speakout - I think you have defined unconditional love something we all need to learn - not just when dealing with people with MH issues but all areas of our lives - thank you x

YANBU

I've posted recently on a thread outlining the reasons I walked away from my DM who is mentally ill. You cannot help anybody who won't help themselves. If they don't think they have a problem, then in their head there is "nothing to fix".
So you stay the same, the situation stays the same, and it drains the life from you.

That FOG fear, obligation, guilt kept me as an emotional (sometimes physical) punch bag for far longer than I should have, to the detriment of my own health. It is no way to live. There comes a time when self-preservation kicks in, and you know you tried your hardest but can't do it anymore. I don't feel guilty.

My DGM is elderly now, and never got anything like a retirement, which could end up being your DH's parents sadly.
My DGM's life has been a cycle of hospital visits, insults, vicious names, calling doctors in tears, begging for help, and being the soundboard to disgusting, horrible insults. I was doing the same at the time, but DM had a knack for knowing exactly what to say to doctors, never letting them know how far declined her MH was. It was only when she clearly became a danger to people that they intervened via sectioning. Then upon release, medication was binned before she got home.

DGM has said to me she wants to die now, she is so tired. But said she is too worried about what will become of her Daughter if she isn't there.

My DM, despite many years of doctors, sectioning, medication, psychiatrists, crisis teams, CPN visits, still absolutely refuses to accept she is ill. Once they've reduced supervision, the throws her medication in the bin.
I said to DGM she has given 60yrs to my DM, nobody could ever doubt she has done anything & everything she can, from her childhood, to now middle age. That she needs to step back and put herself first now. But she said she can't, because "she needs me".

Mental illness can break families apart, and I wouldn't ever judge anybody for knowing they needed to walk away.
I had young DC myself when I did. I found a letter that my DS was writing in his room to my DM asking her to please listen to her doctor, and that it is not normal to call people up just to scream how disgusting and pathetic they are, that she is making me cry, is making me miserable, and why is she as their Grandma being so horrible to their Mum? That was it for me.
Have been NC since, including my DC, moved house and changed my contact details.
I wouldn't let her mental illness ruin another generation of family.

I feel quite conflicted at the concept of
Like I say, I know it's not them and it's an illness but how much can people be expected to put up with before they say 'I can't do this anymore' without judgement.
And mention of it's not them, it's the illness

I have experienced a range of MH problems in my family and in myself. I have become hardened with age.

I now think about it as an external illness only if most of the person's adult life has been devoid of the illness. If most of the person's adult life has been characterised by the "illness" then I'm afraid I don't see it as an illness. I see it as their personality. Perhaps a shitty personality that hurts themselves more than others but nevertheless their personality.

In my experience, if a person develops a MH problem that "isn't them" they tend to seek ways to fix it. Perhaps slowly, perhaps avoiding for ages, perhaps self-destructing somewhat first. Yet they seek their way back to normal, sometimes with external support but often with minimal support and certainly v little abuse of those they love.

Then there are those who have personalities that are selfish and abusive, and you can see this having been the case throughout their life post-puberty. In my mind I no longer see that as a distinct MH problem to be supported by me. Sure, the person has issues but I don't see them as separate to the person, I see it as a deep issue of bad personality and I am not putting myself or my family into that situation. I'm fully in "protect myself" mode not "help the injured person" mode.

I think people too often, out of kindness, want to believe that a problem of long-standing awful selfish abusive personality in a family member is a temporary fixable external thing.

Like they want it to be like a cancer that is debilitating but can identified, excised and then you'll be normal if you just manage your lifestyle more carefully than others to avoid a return.

Whereas it is more like the person having a chromosomal abnormality. You can manage the symptoms somewhat but you can't "cure" the person of it. It is fundamentally them, however unfair that may seem.

DH's sibling sounds like the bad personality person to me.

I'd help DH shift his mind away from "this person is inherently good but has a fixable illness that is making them seem bad" to "this person is bad, it makes me feel sad that they are bad, I wish they were not bad, but I can't stop them being bad so I will have to simply protect myself and my family from them instead."

You being clear on this distinction and refusing to play along can help DH. Refuse to play along with the fantasy of this or that little intervention will help and this or that attack by them is OK because they have waved their Be An Utter Bastard Without Consequence Free Pass Card due to MH issues.

A counsellor for DH with expertise in domestic abuse will help him understand and separate pity for the sibling, pity for himself for having a bad sibling, limits of his influence, self-protection, etc.

DH has to detach and grieve loss of hope for the sibling if you are to come out of this healthy yourselves. You can help but it ultimately has to come from him. Don't play along with comforting delusions though. It won't help anyone in the long run. Good luck.

I now think about it as an external illness only if most of the person's adult life has been devoid of the illness. If most of the person's adult life has been characterised by the "illness" then I'm afraid I don't see it as an illness. I see it as their personality. Perhaps a shitty personality that hurts themselves more than others but nevertheless their personality.

^^ this

I have also had to walk away from someone with MH issues who refused to engage with any help. In this case he expected all the support to come from his family so would phone one of us at 1am and expect to talk all night, even though we all worked or had young children. No one could ever be happy or celebrate anything as he said it was unfair to him who couldn't feel the same. It got to the point where it was breaking people and we had to step away.

It is a very difficult thing to deal with because it isn't the persons fault of course, but it can affect your own mental health too. Resources are stretched to breaking point and in my experience they just don't have the time to support people who refuse to engage with them. It is also true that some abusers can use mental health as justification for their behavior as was the case with my ex boyfriend. It is very easy to say you must support a person with mental health problems, but it should also be acknowledged that doing so can break families and there aren't always the resources to support them

Yes - it was one of the key issues in my recent divorce. My (now ex) husbands refusal to get help for his long term depression and anxiety. He had deteriorated over the last 10 years slowly but significantly and his issues had taken over mine and our DDs lives. His anxieties over food cleanliness affected where we chose to eat, the issues he had with noise affected where we could for days out and what we could do in the house, his concerns over dirt impacted us every minute of the day with the way I cooked, what I cooked, how often we washed, etc.. all needing to conform to his standards. His depression meant getting him out of bed to do anything was tough and he hadn't worked in the whole of that 10 years.
He had panic attacks, severe health anxiety and was just an utter misery to be around. There was nothing at all left of the man I married.

He refused to take pills, dropped out of counselling after 3 sessions and would make no further effort to get help despite admitting he had issues and was unhappy.

Now we are divorced he is still very unhappy. He is working but I'm not sure how much longer he'll be able to do it for, the cracks are showing. He has lost a huge amount of weight to the point that he looks ill. I try to shield our DD from the worst of it and she sees her Dad very often and very regularly but she is well aware of his limitations. I am concerned that he will eventually end up homeless and destitute. If he loses this job he will not be able to afford rent etc.. However I couldn't go on any longer being unhappy and trying to cope with his issues all day every day. It is soul destroying.

Now I walk the tightrope of trying to be supportive but without getting sucked in. He is kind enough to try and not let me see how bad it is. I know but I can't help him. If I couldn't help as his wife then there is nothing I can do as his ex-wife!

Yes I walked away from my ex, who had MH issues. We were together 5 years, and problems started about 4 month in … you think you can help this person, you feel you MUST be there to help, but it's thrown back in your face. Whenever you feel strong and think 'enough', guilt steps in and makes you try again. They blame you for their issues, you're no help, maybe they'll harm themselves … it'll be your fault … OP, I can empathise totally. I think I only managed to free myself because my Dr told me he thought I had depression - I'd gone to see him about something else, started talking to him, and he picked up on my mood. I hit rock bottom, I hit an emotional wall, and had to help myself. Even with a diagnosis of depression, my ex still went on at me, it was still all about him and how I wasn't even trying to help, because now I was only thinking of myself and my problems. 15 years on and I'm still affected by the way he went on, so I think you need to start putting your family's needs before this person's needs, as you will never be able to make them better, and they will never be grateful to your DH for anything he has tried to do.