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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Student DS has moved into a deathtrap - any EHOs about?

62 replies

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 00:49

I've just got back from helping move DS into his new student flat. DS hadn't seen it before moving in as he was abroad on placement until last week and he trusted his friends to find somewhere. On the surface, it looks fine - newish, smart kitchen and bathroom, wooden floors, marble tiles on the bathroom floor, beautiful original fireplaces, new mattresses etc. But it's all fur coat and no knickers...

It's a converted Victorian building with a shop in the ground floor and basement, then 3 flats above, each flat is on 2 levels but they are half levels IYSWIM so it is 5 tall storeys in total (very high ceilings). They are on the 2nd floor. I've just checked planning, which goes back to 1990, and the land registry. The building has only ever been sold as a whole and there is no planning application to convert it into flats, so assuming there ever was planning permission, current building regs may not apply as it was done years ago :-/

My main concerns are:

There is no emergency lighting in the flat or communal hallway/staircase.

The smoke alarms in the flat are not integrated (one in the kitchen, one in the hall), just normal domestic battery alarms that we can't test as the ceilings are about 12 feet high. There are no smoke alarms in the communal staircase/hallway.

The front doors of the flats appear to be normal, thin, internal wooden doors, not fire doors with an internal style lock (not Yale) and there is no smoke seal so there is a gap under the door.

DS's bedroom has a an internal door that has had the handle removed and hardboard put over it and a painted out over-door window that would have opened onto the communal staircase for the whole building. There is a gap under the door. So basically, there is no wall between his room and the communal hallway. This is the same for all 3 of the flats. One bedroom has a semi-blocked up doorway onto the communal staircase.

The back of the building is totally inaccessible to the fire brigade (building behind), and the fire escape only goes to the first floor. The front is on the road so accessible in a fire but the double glazed windows only open at the top.

The estate agent sent them the EPC with the contract but no gas safety certificate (that could be a mistake, it doesn't mean there isn't one). They also didn't send the How to Rent booklet so they are pretty incompetent. Plus the boiler is really old and although it seems to work, it has zero pressure and it has been built into a cupboard so you can't access the taps to repressure it. I guess that's not a gas safety issue though.

The washing machine and cooker are plugged into a normal plug socket attached to the side of the cupboard under the sink, right under the U-bend.

I was only there for 15 minutes so we didn't do a through check. And those are just the safety concerns - 2 of the wardrobes toppled over because they were propped up on broken legs and the hall light fell out of the ceiling when we opened the door and is hanging is by a wire... It also seems that the radiators in the hallway branch off the central heating from the flat and there is no electricity meter for the communal hallway so somebody else is paying the landlord's bill.

AIBU to think this is a death trap? Are there any environmental health officers, planners, building regs experts out there who can either put my mind at rest that it's safe or tell me what law they are in breach of? Or tell me what I fear - it isn't very safe but it's perfectly legal :-/

Not a safety issue, but the agents have also just told them that the landlord doesn't do inventories. If they want one they have to pay for it. I know it's illegal to charge tenants for inventories now but what happens if the landlord doesn't want an inventory...? It feels like they have found a loophole to get the tenants to pay. And confirms my fear that they are charlatans...

OP posts:
LillithsFamiliar · 01/09/2019 01:01

If there's a shop on the ground floor, there should be a planning application. You may have missed it because there could have been a variation in address details.
There could be reasons for some of the other issues eg if the building is listed then it can create a conflict between listed building consents and access issues.
However, you seem very unhappy with a lot of points. tbh too many for a LL to fix. (for example, the lack of an obvious electricity meter isn't your concern. It could be that you missed it. It could be that the LL owns other flats in the building. It could be that a factor manages the communal spaces or the owners factor it together).
What are the terms of the lease because it sounds as though you want your DS to try to get out of it?

Weezol · 01/09/2019 01:10

I'm not exactly who you need, but I was an underwriter on BTL mortgages so I know a bit about HMO, regs, standards etc.

Firstly, can you put DS into a Travelodge or similar? He needs to be out of there ASAP. Find some scary stories on the Internet if he needs some encouragement.

Today (Sunday) find the direct number for the Fire Station local to the property and give them a call after 9am for advice - they will come out and inspect and test, often quite quickly. Their reports are taken very seriously and in partnership with the Local Authority can close down properties that are unsafe and levy a fine or enforcement notice on the owner of that property.

Contact the appropriate local Housing Authority first thing Monday. Tell them everything. Did you take pictures? If so you can email them on. It sounds like an illegal conversion, possibly a HMO bodge.

www.gov.uk/house-in-multiple-occupation-licence

I'd also contact the university Student Services and give them a heads up on the letting agency. Ditto Student's Union.

To my extreme ire, Letting/Estate agents are still not regulated so there are some utter shysters out there. Do not give them another penny.

Is the deposit lodged in the Deposit Scheme?

www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection

One last link

www.gov.uk/private-renting

I hope that's some help.

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 01:27

The landlord owns the entire building. It was built as commercial premises with accommodation above. The commercial premises are leasehold and he owns the freehold.

My concern is that the 3 flats aren't actually "flats", they are just rooms divided up being let as flats. You can't nail a door shut that opens onto a communal hallway and declare it a wall. Or maybe you could pre-1985.

My biggest concern is that there are no integrated smoke alarms so if there is a fire in another flat on a different floor, although it might set off their internal smoke alarm, it wouldn't be heard on other floors, yet my DS is sleeping in a room that is not sealed off from the rest of the communal hallway that has no smoke alarms. By the time the smoke was at a level to set off the smoke alarm in his internal hallway, he would be long dead...

OP posts:
jimmyhill · 01/09/2019 01:32

Lack of inventory is always in the tenant's favour. LL will find it impossible to prove damage etc without one

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 02:06

Thanks @Weezol. That was my thought - it's an HMO bodge/illegal conversion. I was planning on calling the fire brigade on Monday but I'm not sure whether they can advise on things like the door for a wall but they can help with the fire alarms etc. The council... well they don't have the greatest record for fire safety concerns. Nor are they that bothered about their less wealthy residents. The neighbouring borough (where DS lived before) has stringent rules about HMOs because there are so many and sets the limit at more than 2 unrelated tenants with rules about bathrooms, kitchen space, fire safety. This borough goes with the national minimum of 5. Looking at Rightmove, it also seems to be okay to let a windlowless cupboard as a bedroom as long as there are less than 5 tenants...

Good point about the TDS. It was all very fast. They signed contracts, paid up and got the keys in 48 hours so I will give the agency until Monday to send the TDS certificate.

DS can come home, I live elsewhere in the city. His flatmates are international students, and not wealthy, so they can't afford to move out. One of them is in the middle of resits. I guess, worst case, they can camp in my sitting room or the uni might be able to help...

OP posts:
wibbletooth · 01/09/2019 07:04

I would wait the legal limit time for being given the TDS details before reminding them because if they don’t pay into a proper scheme they have to pay you up to 3x the amount...

They deserve to be fined and pay out to the occupants rather than have you/the tenants remind them and give them a chance to pay it into the scheme and not compensate you... not particularly about getting the extra money (although it’s a nice bonus!) but because it’s a really basic thing that a landlord should do, especially a professional one. If they’re shydters that aren’t good at all this stuff then this is an easy one to prove that they haven’t done if your son and his friends need to move out and claim against the bad landlord and/or bad agent - all helps to paint a picture.

Can you find a basic checklist online of regulations for an HMO and get your son to look at his flat and check everything he possibly can on it - the list of things you’ve put up here is a good start - and get him to take pictures of everything - but also to take videos of everything on his phone, explaining what he is looking at - or looking for and not finding... and where there are gaps under doors get him to stick his fingers under or get a housemate to wiggle them through from the other side so it’s really easy to see how big the gap is. Pictures are great for sending in emails and putting in reports but can be dry and might not be clear or miss a bit. Videos on the other hand can be really effective as it enables the viewer to really understand what is happening. They can also show the whole room and flat within the video so the landlord can’t say oh you missed it in the cupboard - you can show that you looked in the cupboard and it was locked or bits restricted etc. Also you can show the escape route in case of fire and show the lack of alarms and how difficult it would be in a real fire.

Good luck helping your son get it sorted and finding somewhere else/getting this up to standard.

Macandcheeseplease · 01/09/2019 07:07

Where are you? If you're in Scotland then it's easier as flat should have an HMO licence.

LaBelleSauvage · 01/09/2019 07:09

What are your son's thoughts on the matter?

sashh · 01/09/2019 07:14

Every thing Weezol said and contact the parents of his flat mates if you can.

And consider a sad face i the paper.

LIZS · 01/09/2019 07:26

If he is a student he could speak to the SU housing officer. Some landlords. Agents and properties are renowned for issues. Also Shelter worth a ring. It sounds like an illegal hmo and the council website should have a list of regulations which would apply.

alwayscoffee · 01/09/2019 07:35

That sounds very like the converted building I live in. We’ve had a fire risk assessment and were told that everything was fine. An integrated smoke alarm is very rare in my experience and smoke seals are a modern invention which don’t need retrofitting. Many buildings don’t have access at the back due to other buildings - think terraces of houses with terraced behind.

I look forward to hearing what the fire brigade say

Northernsoullover · 01/09/2019 07:36

EHO in training here so only half the knowledge Wink.. but contact the local regulatory services as soon as they open on Monday. Don't mess around with Shelter.
You can download the regulations for HMO's through the council (use the area he is in). You can also find fire safety information by googling LACORS, but the regulatory services can do all the investigation for you. From what you have written it does indeed sound like a death trap.
As for an inventory as others have said its more to protect the landlord rather than the tenant so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

R44Me · 01/09/2019 07:57

Buy some extra smoke alarms to place around first.

AlwaysCheddar · 01/09/2019 08:07

Take photos/video if all issues.

WaterOffaDucksCrack · 01/09/2019 08:23

I think communications will have to come from your son tbh because he's actually a tennant there.

The fire thing yes the fire brigade will be able to advise but you may be waiting some time for them to come out. They have so many buildings they have to inspect that I know in my county it can take a while and they've reduced their usual visits to certain premises (care homes being one).

As for the rest of the issues.....all I'll say is good luck! In my experience the council won't care, there are many families with babies and children in a lot worse conditions who have to stay there as there are no other options. And the uni, it depends which and how good they are but they have thousands of students and are unlikely to weigh in on these issues since they likely run their own accommodation.

Northernsoullover · 01/09/2019 08:30

Water the council will care. They will investigate and if breaches are found they will take enforcement steps. I've seen some really really shitty accommodation but if it complies there is no action taken.

AppleKatie · 01/09/2019 08:32

Ime uni’s can be very good with this stuff. I would definitely get your DS in touch with the SU first thing tomorrow.

Northernparent68 · 01/09/2019 08:41

It might be time to let go a bit and let your son take responsibility for his life.

longtimelurkerhelen · 01/09/2019 09:05

It might be time to let go a bit and let your son take responsibility for his life

Yes leave him to it. When he dies from carbon monoxide poisoning, or burnt to death, he will learn his lesson.

Young people are often taken advantage of because they don’t know their rights. Please do contact the local council, they will come out and do an inspection. Sounds like an illegal HMO.

LillithsFamiliar · 01/09/2019 10:15

It may not be an HMO. OP hasn't clarified exactly how many tenants there are, what facilities are shared or where in the UK she is. The HMO definition and requirements differ from Scotland to England, etc.

As a PP pointed out, their flat is similar and it passed a fire risk assessment. The fire brigade don't expect the same standard from a Victorian conversion as they do from a purpose-built modern flat. Lots of properties don't have a back access and have no external fire escape.
If the property is an HMO which sounds unlikely from the information given then yy there are guidelines for fire doors, signage, lighting, etc.
OP what do you want to achieve? Do you want the property closed down? Do you want your DS to move out? What does your DS think about all of this?
If it's a property with no planning, building warrants or HMO license then those issues are not going to be resolved quickly. Your DS will need to find somewhere else to rent.

WaterOffaDucksCrack · 01/09/2019 10:40

Northernsoullover it must depend which council then! 3 of my friends homes have breaches as or more serious than these and they've not cared. We do live in a deprived area though so are bottom of the pile anyway.

MelonSlice · 01/09/2019 12:37

Ask the landlord/agent to see a copy of the fire risk assessment, then watch them sweat.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 01/09/2019 12:55

I'd get on to the council ASAP.

Admittedly it was a while ago, but a dd and friends were in a student house in Nottingham that was shabby but seemed OK at first - until they realised that (among other things) the electrics were seriously dodgy. Also the old sofas had stuffing coming out, which they suspected was the old-style illegal stuff. They got a fireman round to check - he actually put a bit in a frying pan and lit it!

When they asked the landlady to remedy anything, she simply screamed at them down the phone.

So they contacted the council's housing dept., who came round and made a whole list of things that badly needed fixing - more than they'd realised. They gave her X time to do it all, or they'd do it and charge her.
She did it - having screamed and ranted some more at her tenants for shopping her,

Interestingly she actually lived not far from us in SW London. Dh phoned her and told her exactly what he thought of a LL who provided substandard/dangerous acoommodation, and then screamed at and abused tenants who asked her to fix it.

Greatnorthwoods · 01/09/2019 13:02

It might be time to let go a bit and let your son take responsibility for his life.

Kinda agree, it’s not what I would describe as a death trap. Sounds like standard cheap student housing.

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 13:04

It isn't an HMO. My gut feeling is that it was bedsits that have been hastily reconfigured to make them self-contained flats to avoid HMO legislation, hence the nailed shut doors in place of a wall. Unfortunately, if it were just 100m west, it would be in another borough where it would be classified as an HMO and it definitely would not be legal there on multiple levels - fire safety, room sizes, bathroom provision.

It most definitely is not up to current building regs but as there are no planning applications after 1990, it probably doesn't have to be. And assuming it hasn't been done without planning permission at a later date. But there are still laws about fire safety that do apply. It's a 5 storey building (if the basement is included) above commercial premises so the laws are more stringent. The problem is it's not exactly easy for a non-expert to plough through the LACORS guide to work out which ones apply. I'm not even sure if the basement counts a storey, which affects which laws apply. Hence asking here.

DS and his friends are concerned, which is why they asked me for advice.

OP posts: