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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Student DS has moved into a deathtrap - any EHOs about?

62 replies

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 00:49

I've just got back from helping move DS into his new student flat. DS hadn't seen it before moving in as he was abroad on placement until last week and he trusted his friends to find somewhere. On the surface, it looks fine - newish, smart kitchen and bathroom, wooden floors, marble tiles on the bathroom floor, beautiful original fireplaces, new mattresses etc. But it's all fur coat and no knickers...

It's a converted Victorian building with a shop in the ground floor and basement, then 3 flats above, each flat is on 2 levels but they are half levels IYSWIM so it is 5 tall storeys in total (very high ceilings). They are on the 2nd floor. I've just checked planning, which goes back to 1990, and the land registry. The building has only ever been sold as a whole and there is no planning application to convert it into flats, so assuming there ever was planning permission, current building regs may not apply as it was done years ago :-/

My main concerns are:

There is no emergency lighting in the flat or communal hallway/staircase.

The smoke alarms in the flat are not integrated (one in the kitchen, one in the hall), just normal domestic battery alarms that we can't test as the ceilings are about 12 feet high. There are no smoke alarms in the communal staircase/hallway.

The front doors of the flats appear to be normal, thin, internal wooden doors, not fire doors with an internal style lock (not Yale) and there is no smoke seal so there is a gap under the door.

DS's bedroom has a an internal door that has had the handle removed and hardboard put over it and a painted out over-door window that would have opened onto the communal staircase for the whole building. There is a gap under the door. So basically, there is no wall between his room and the communal hallway. This is the same for all 3 of the flats. One bedroom has a semi-blocked up doorway onto the communal staircase.

The back of the building is totally inaccessible to the fire brigade (building behind), and the fire escape only goes to the first floor. The front is on the road so accessible in a fire but the double glazed windows only open at the top.

The estate agent sent them the EPC with the contract but no gas safety certificate (that could be a mistake, it doesn't mean there isn't one). They also didn't send the How to Rent booklet so they are pretty incompetent. Plus the boiler is really old and although it seems to work, it has zero pressure and it has been built into a cupboard so you can't access the taps to repressure it. I guess that's not a gas safety issue though.

The washing machine and cooker are plugged into a normal plug socket attached to the side of the cupboard under the sink, right under the U-bend.

I was only there for 15 minutes so we didn't do a through check. And those are just the safety concerns - 2 of the wardrobes toppled over because they were propped up on broken legs and the hall light fell out of the ceiling when we opened the door and is hanging is by a wire... It also seems that the radiators in the hallway branch off the central heating from the flat and there is no electricity meter for the communal hallway so somebody else is paying the landlord's bill.

AIBU to think this is a death trap? Are there any environmental health officers, planners, building regs experts out there who can either put my mind at rest that it's safe or tell me what law they are in breach of? Or tell me what I fear - it isn't very safe but it's perfectly legal :-/

Not a safety issue, but the agents have also just told them that the landlord doesn't do inventories. If they want one they have to pay for it. I know it's illegal to charge tenants for inventories now but what happens if the landlord doesn't want an inventory...? It feels like they have found a loophole to get the tenants to pay. And confirms my fear that they are charlatans...

OP posts:
Northernsoullover · 01/09/2019 14:39

I'm all for letting young adults learn how to cope but in this instance he probably doesn't care. I'd certainly be acting on his behalf.
My local has successfully prosecuted landlords who have tried to avoid licensing.

wibbletooth · 01/09/2019 14:50

Really shocked reading this to discover that within England the requirements for landlords can vary so much! You’d think that they should all be the same and bring everything up to the highest standard...

Starlingsarebullies · 01/09/2019 15:00

When my DD briefly moved into a dodgy flat that didn’t meet regulations , the LL was “happy” to return her deposit and rent when it became clear that her father was going to make a fuss. I presume the LL did not want to be investigated

Allthebears · 01/09/2019 15:00

Please don't listen to people telling you to leave him to it.

My SIL died a few years ago in a house fire. It was a rental flat run by a landlord who owned multiple properties and did the minimum maintenance. She was naive and oblivious / unaware of the danger.

I'm sure my lovely PILs still wish they had 'interfered' and checked things out. Sad

I'm all for letting young people stand on their own two feet etc but not in this situation. Hindsight can be a terrible thing.

SummerWhisper · 01/09/2019 15:11

Some great advice so far, but please also contact the council, as northern said. Some councils operate a landlord licensing scheme and they WILL investigate if this chap is not licensed (depends which authority). Failing that, the local councillors can take it up as a case and advoxate on behalf of your son. Also, in some authorities, councillors have housing portfolios, so check them out and ask for their help. These elected officials are there to help. Use them. Very best of luck!

badgermushrooms · 01/09/2019 15:14

it’s not what I would describe as a death trap. Sounds like standard cheap student housing.

If you read the OP's posts she is describing a building in which a fire in another "flat" would be in her son's room before any fire alarms close enough to wake him went off. I lived in my fair share of shitholes as a student but none in which I was at risk of dying in a fire if my neighbours forgot they'd left something in the grill.

badgermushrooms · 01/09/2019 15:15

Oh, and if you're in Scotland proper linked fire alarms are required in all rented property by law.

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 15:36

DS has just came home to drop off his valuables as the door to the building isn't secure. He said he's going to call the council and fire brigade for advice tomorrow. His decision is that they say it isn't safe, he's moving out. He's also noticed that the gas meter is just on the wall (not in a cupboard) above their front door, which appears to also be against regulations.

He's dealing with it pretty much on his own and doing a good job but obviously he looks to his parents for advice sometimes. FGS, I'd probably be asking my dad if he were still alive as it was his area of expertise. And I think, in this case, if he wasn't dealing with it, it's not something to keep quiet about.

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions and all the lovely people who haven't suggested that I should just leave him to learn for himself by dying in a fire Hmm

If anyone does know exactly what the regs are, that would be really helpful. We are still trying to work out exactly what the requirements are as DS wants to take photos to show the EHO.

OP posts:
BarbariansMum · 01/09/2019 16:02

99 times out of 100 on Mumsnet I'm in the " cut the apron strings" brigade. Not in this case.

Northernsoullover · 01/09/2019 18:33

The regulations are complex and as I'm only halfway to being an EHO I can't give a definitive answer but.. the council will talk you through all of this. Just list the facts as you have here. The number of tenants and that they are unrelated.
Lack of fire doors, gas meter not boxed in etc. The cooker not having the correct supply is a massive no no. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

longtimelurkerhelen · 01/09/2019 18:34

@runoutofnamechanges

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions and all the lovely people who haven't suggested that I should just leave him to learn for himself by dying in a fire

I wasn't suggesting that, I was being facetious as the pp said leave him to stand on his own.

I 100% agree you should be involved and advise him. Good luck with the council and Fire Brigade

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 18:52

Sorry @longtimelurkerhelen I didn't mean you! I know you were being facetious. I meant the PPs who seemed to think I should do and say nothing now he's over 18. I was just referencing your excellent pithy response to them.

OP posts:
Weezol · 01/09/2019 18:52

Please stop trying to figure out the regs - that's for the council/owner/fire service to take on!
Your son needs to be out of the building as soon as, i.e. now for his own safety.

Allthebears Flowers. I've read too many incident reports from fire officers and insurers in my time involving loss of life.

Also lots of reports where surveyors have arrived to find a 3 bed semi with 25 mattresses in the house and several sets of bunk beds in the garage.

runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 18:52

And thanks @Northernsoullover for your advice.

OP posts:
runoutofnamechanges · 01/09/2019 19:20

@Weezol Thanks for your advice too. DS isn't staying there, he is going to stay at home temporarily but there are 8 other students still living in the 3 flats. He just wants to be prepared as to what to raise with council.

OP posts:
wibbletooth · 02/09/2019 00:40

Do they have any kind of contents insurance on the place? I seem to remember having specialised student contents insurance when I was at uni so they understood this sort of set up.

Anyhow, do they have legal insurance on their contents insurance if they have it? Or through anything else (bank account, student union membership etc)? If they do, now would be an excellent time to contact them for advice.

If they don't have insurance then maybe it would be wise to buy some asap and make sure there's legal cover/advice on it!

SandyY2K · 02/09/2019 00:53

A parent who wouldn't help or look our for their adult child in a situation like this, isn't a good parent IMO.

My DD is a student and I would absolutely want her in a safe property...for my piece of mind.

You're doing the right thing OP...the property does sound substandard

runoutofnamechanges · 02/09/2019 21:09

An update:

This morning DS asked the letting agent for the gas safety certificate and, on the advice of the fire brigade, the fire risk assessment for the building. No reply as yet.

The fire brigade have asked for photos and may come to check the building if the agent can't come up with the documentation. However, they can't check whether has the necessary structural fire precautions, only fire doors/alarms etc... and what is required is dependent on the how the building is constructed.

The council are not very helpful. As I guessed, they want to know exactly what law is being breached and the complaint needs to go to the correct department, the onus is on us to sort that out.

So far we have ascertained, that HMO licensing, planning and the fire brigade all have different definitions of what constitutes an HMO so it is and it isn't an HMO. It is also an FMO and as there is no lounge it is also a bedsit and it breaches all the rules (not just fire safety, room size, facilities etc too) for HMOs, FMOs and bedsits set by the council but if it doesn't require an HMO licence they don't seem to enforce them Hmm

It also seems the building is not a conversion, it was originally 3 rather grand apartments and a shop. However, it has clearly been reconfigured (the bedrooms are only approx 2m wide, the blocked up entrance doors, the grand fireplaces and high ceilings in tiny, odd shaped rooms,, the layout is different from identical buildings in the terrace). Planning have checked and there have been no planning or building control applications for the building post 1948 so it seems likely that work has been done without planning permission and no building regs checks at some point. Probably quite recently as the architrave, skirting, coving etc are all perfect and modern and the walls don't have any filler/dents etc Building control are calling them back.

If anyone has any further advice, that would be helpful.

OP posts:
ChiaraRimini · 02/09/2019 21:16

OP-it sounds like you are doing all the right things.
The council and fire service sound shambolic.
I am not an expert but the lack of fire proofing between apartments and alarms sounds totally wrong to me. Far better to be safe than sorry.

threeicklepickles · 02/09/2019 21:52

Sounds like all of the flats need an assessment under HHSRS? (Housing Health and Safety Rating System) as well. Can your DS go back to the council and ask for one?
If they do inspect and find hazards the council can force the LL to do the work.

longtimelurkerhelen · 02/09/2019 21:54

Who did you contact at the council? I think it is environmental health or the Private Rented Housing Team. Phone the main switchboard and ask them who they think you need to speak to, the receptionists are usually very helpful.

You could ring Shelter and ask their advice, they are also very knowledgeable and should be able to point you in the right direction.

What council is it? I'll have a look for you.

Good luck.

AnneElliott · 02/09/2019 22:04

I would speak to building control at the council (I think you said they were calling your DS back?). They have powers to declare it an unsafe structure and can work with the fire service to enforce regulations.

WellThisIsShit · 02/09/2019 22:35

Gosh it sounds a nightmare, good luck to you getting the right department pinned down and discovering what’s going on here. Flowers

runoutofnamechanges · 02/09/2019 22:36

HHSRS sounds like a useful thing to request. Thanks for that.

I spoke to planning and building control. DS spoke to someone in housing but she was a kind of triage person who didn't really know who to send it to.

I don't know if they have a Private Rented Housing Team. I'll check.The borough DS lived in before had one according to their website (and it still says they do) but the department was closed several years ago...

DS has tried Shelter but it's impossible to get through.

The council is Kensington and Chelsea...

OP posts:
longtimelurkerhelen · 03/09/2019 09:13

Yes you should ask for HHSRS assessment.

Here are some links, this one is for the private rented team

www.rbkc.gov.uk/housing/useful-contacts-information/private-renting/tenancy-relations-service

This is the link to the general info and to the standards which rented homes should comply.

www.rbkc.gov.uk/housing/living-healthy-homes

I would strongly advise sending an email so you have a paper trail and evidence of contact. It is harder for them to ignore you (though not impossible). Then phone them and refer to your email and ask what action you/they should take and who is responsible. Always write down names and time and what was discussed. They will try to pass the buck and fob you off, don’t let them.

After reading up a bit, it seems the advice is to contact your LL in the first instance to give them a chance to rectify any issues. Seeing as there are some significant health and safety issues, I would also contact the Council.

Send emails from your Son as he is the tenant.