To ask DP not to ask BIL to be groomsman?

[MrsBendurdickCuminmysnatch]

Sorry it's long... some facts changed for anonymity.

DP and I are getting married next year. DP wants his 2 best mates and his oldest brother as groomsmen. It’s the brother I am against. His brother is a nice enough man and I have no personal beef with him. However, his wife is a nightmare, and I want to ask him not to ask his brother because of her. For the following explanation and examples, let’s call her W. I’ll refer to DP’s brother as BIL.

W is manipulative. She’s passive aggressive. Shes mean. But mostly, she's controlling and a total drama queen. I am worried that asking BIL to be involved will essentially mean that she will be, by default, involved and will hold everyone to ransom for silly things. E.g:

1. W treats BIL like shit. BIL has had counselling and is depressed. He wont leave her though because in their country fathers have no real rights on a divorce and she has threatened to stop him seeing the kids. Whenever he is involved in anything, she has to know everything about it and be involved too. She checks his phone and gives her 2 cents at all times. BIL actually has a secret phone at work for calling family so she doesn't know.

1. DP and BIL have a brother who is married to a lady called S. W will not talk to S and absolutely hates her. They haven't been in the same room for years because W prevents BIL from seeing the other brother and S. We all have to make sure not to mention S or even the other brother in front of W. There is no good reason for this, though consensus is that she just doesn’t like that BIL and S used to have mutual friends etc. More importantly, when the other brother and S got married, BIL and W were invited and W caused mayhem. She tried to tell everyone that she had no issue with them, but BIL did, so she and the kids should go alone without BIL. Nobody believed this or was having any of it so she was told it was both her and BIL or nobody. They RSVPed saying they would go, but there was no sign of them. Halfway through dinner, they turned up, wanting to make an entrance during one of the speeches – her in a cream dress – but they were duly prevented from entering by half of DP's family. W now considers that she was hard done by and that this was all awful. It's caused so many rows since that I can absolutely see similar issues arising next year.

1. Recently, BIL and W were supposed to visit us. At the last minute, BIL called DP to say W was upset and didnt want to come because DP had excluded them from a private family facebook account. BIL had previously been asked if he wanted to join but declined because S uploads pics of her kids on there. W had insisted that BIL call DP to shout at him about this. After DP told him where to go, 15 mins later BIL called back from his secret phone to apologise and explain that she was forcing him to do this, even though he knew it was all rubbish. DP wasn't having any of it so they did visit but she goaded BIL into mentioning it again later, which caused an almighty row between BIL and DP in a pub.

1. Before BIL and W's wedding, W announced that she didnt like the fascinator MIL had chosen. 2 days later a new fascinator turned up on the doorstep of MIL's house. MIL didn't wear it. Cue more rows.

1. At BIL and W's wedding, W refused to enter the reception until MIL removed her jacket as it was too similar a colour to W's own mother's dress. BIL had to go and get her and calm her down. She wouldn't speak to MIL all day after that.

1. Other 2 groomsmen live overseas so can't organise the stag do. If BIL is asked that will be his role. But BIL isn't generally allowed out, so W will have some sort of control over what is allowed / will cause issues. Usually, when BIL goes out she calls over and over with various issues until he cracks and goes home.

My concern re the wedding is that we can't win. She's a drama queen and everything has to be on her terms.

If we ask BIL to be a groomsman, she will have some issue 2 days before which will hold us all to ransom - we'll have paid for a suit and arranged thinsg around 3 groomsmen and we'll have to appease her to ensure things continue smoothly, no matter what she asks. I imagine it will be something to do with other brother and S, but tbh it could be anything...

If we don;t ask him though, she will bitch that he has been left out - particularly as DP was a groomsman at their wedding.

My view is that we dont ask him as it's too risky, and we tell BIL why. He can then explain to his wife why this is such a nightmare. DP thinks it's better to have him and just deal with whatever issues she creates nearer the time. What do you think?

*EDIT: other brother isnt in contention for groomsman for other reasons - nothing relevant to this and nothing to do with him personally, but more logistics. He is fine with this.

Is there anyone at all who can successfully stand up to this woman? If there is you need to get them on side and ask them to help you keep her in check over this otherwise she has the potential to wreck your wedding.

Surely it's for your partner to choose, does he have a veto on your bridesmaids? Some women need to learn that there are two people in a wedding and both should have an equal say. Can't stand women who refer to 'my' wedding.
It seems unfair to expect your partner to penalise his brother because you don't get on with the brother's wife, she may have an equally low opinion of you.
Is it your intention to control his choices for the rest of your lives together?

Don't think of it as wasting money if he's not able to participate. Think of it as money well spent showing him you and your dp value him and would like him involved and will always be there for him no matter how difficult his wife is. If it's money you're willing to spend on giving him the honour, it doesn't matter if he's able to participate or not - he's still someone you want to honour.

And as long as you go into it with the attitude that you'd love him to be there, you'd like to honour him by asking him, but you know W might make it difficult for him to actually participate, then if she kicks off it still won't cause drama. You just say that's a shame and let her be her, because you haven't relied on his involvement.

Try and think of it as you might if you had a sibling who had a child who had a severe health problem that sometimes requires emergency stays in hospital - you want them involved and allow for them to be involved but you recognise that for no fault of their own they might not be able to - and you'd never argue with them if their child was ill in hospital and they weren't able to attend.

Don't give her the power by either allowing her to dictate the way you include your BIL or to cause a big fuss in the run up.

Maybe go with the usher idea for bil so that on the day it won't matter so much, maybe use the other brother as an excuse for bil not being a groomsman - something like it doesn't seem fair that bil1 is excluded from being a groomsman due to his issues while bil2 is fine so he'd rather have neither than one but would be honoured if bil2 would be an usher as he doesn't want to exclude bil2 totally.

I would say let Bil be groomsman.
Warn absolutely everyone attending that there is a strong chance W will act like a dick in some way. Tell everyone if she tries to cause a scene that she needs to be completely ignored and people are to just carry on as if she's not there.
Unfortunately her causing issues on the run up to the wedding is something you don't have any control over. If it kicks off just explain to Bil that you want him there but understand if he can't. The wait and see if he turns up. If not then just try and crack on.
Sorry you are going through all this stress instead of enjoying it.

I would let your partner decides who he wants, though no doubt by listing all th things the insane woman W has done, no doubt he will probably agree with you for an easier life? I think your putting him in a very difficult situation here, almost a choice between his soon to be wife and his brother who is in desperate need of help and support.

I think you absolutely MUSt invite him to be a groomsman. She's doing her best to alienate him from his family and excluding him will just feed into her narrative. I can assure you that she is subtly or not-so-subtly telling him all the time that the family doesn't love him, doesn't support him etc etc.

The cost of suits, gifts etc might land up being a waste, but chalk it up to the cost of continuing to have relationship with BIL and ensuring he feels that he is supported and loved.

And agree all of you that you won't give into her batshit demands when they come. If she demands something irrational and threatens not to come to wedding as a result or whatever, have prepared response along lines of, "we'll be very said not to have you there but that's your choice." A friend did this when her mother threatened not to come to her wedding if she invited her dad's partner of 20 years.... Her mother came.

Have Bil as groomsman, but with a strong message that if w kicks off, she'll be removed from the ceremony, no ifs or buts

I think I might be on my own on this one but I wouldn't have him as groomsman.
Maybe it might wake him up to the fact his vile wife is ruling everyone's life to the extent people are actually saying get some security in for the wedding. I can't believe it. He needs to stop this now.
This woman acts like this because people let her.
Turn it around and what if it was the grooms sister who was married to this horrible controlling man that everyone was afraid of.
I know it sounds harsh but he needs to get some advice on the children situation and get out of this terrible marriage now.
Everyone is enabling them both.
The wedding is the least of the problem.

She sounds awful. And it definitely sounds like she's isolating BIL and bullying him, and for that reason alone - I would ask him to be groomsman, so as he's not missing out on his brothers big day and feeling further isolated. You don't know she may be affecting him mentally, to then not be asked could crush him?

Could you sit down with them both and explain that you both would love BIL to be part of your special day but you don't want any hassle or drama? And ask for her cooperation? Explain that you witnessed the upset on their own big day and that you really don't want a repeat? Or would she kick off?

Failing that, can you keep her out of all plans and try pre empt her bad behavior?
Give BIL the bare minimum responsibility on the day so there's less that she can interfere with. Exclude her from shopping for the suits and store suits at your house so as she has no access/say in the matter?

Of course you shouldn't even have to ask these things but if it were me I'd be worried about BIL as it is, and would worry about him being excluded (as well as the fact that she's essentially "winning" if that happens)

My own sis had this issue with her now BIL and their wedding and after months of worrying she cornered the SIL and explained that the obstacles which the SIL was creating was spoiling things for everyone. She basically threatened the SIL and said that if BIL couldn't be a part of the day and be allowed enjoy the day, that she would un invite them both and would tell all of her guests that it was her (the SIL's) fault.
It embarrassed her SIL into just cooperating. She had a face like thunder all day and refused to let BIL dance with the bridesmaid for the first dance but BIL got to enjoy most of the day regardless

@Dustyroad
I agree with you.

Whilst I also agree that family should try and support him.

However, I think putting your enjoyment of your wedding at the mercy of this awful woman is a step too far.

I certainly wouldn't do it.

She is being given all this power because she threatens the family and BIL with contact with the children.

She is a nasty Bully. BIL is lucky to have a supportive family but he is not standing up for his children or himself.

I appreciate that he is in an abusive relationship but I also appreciate he is the only one that can help himself.

OP, I don't think you should sacrifice your special day for that woman or your BIL.

Perhaps you should go nuclear and tell her she isn't invited because she can't conduct herself in public and that all family and friends are going to be told this. BIL will have to make his own decision.

Bullys don't like being stood up to.

It would be lovely to have a perfect wedding, but your marriage is the most important thing and you can use the wedding as an opportunity to support your bil to be. The poor man sounds like he is in an abusive marriage and that nasty piece of work is trying to alienate him from his own family. Ask your fiancé to have a proper conversation with his brother about how realistic it is, that his wife doesn’t try to cause trouble. Encourage your fiancé to reach out to his brother and let him know that he’s there for him. Hopefully he is able to maintain a good relationship with his children and can escape when they’re old enough to decide who they want to be with.

I hope you have a lovely wedding.

Talking about what W should/shouldn't be doing and BIL should/shouldn't be doing is irrelevant.

The man is in an abusive marriage. The wife is an abuser. If it was as easy to walk away/put her in her place etc as people seem to believe the man would have fond it already. Other family members would have done it already.

She's an abusive woman. Possibly narcissistic. No amount of talking, reasoning, shouting, arguing, begging, pleading, threatening is going to change her and the narrative in her head.

If it was so easy to tell people like her to fuck off there would be no need for victims of domestic abuse organisations. She is a huge problem. But the problems she causes everyone else are nothing compared to what her poor husband us put through. And he is coping with it in his own way.

Of course he shouldn't put up with it. Neither should all the other victims of domestic abuse, but it is a complex, complicated phenomenon.

All you can do is support your husband2b in what he wants to to. If he wants to ask his brother to stand beside him on his wedding day, then that's what he does. But you both ask him knowing that he might not make it there on the day.

I wouldn't have a "stand-in" groomsman lined up. I think I'd be a bit insulted to be asked to be an on call sub!!