To ask DP not to ask BIL to be groomsman?

[MrsBendurdickCuminmysnatch]

Sorry it's long... some facts changed for anonymity.

DP and I are getting married next year. DP wants his 2 best mates and his oldest brother as groomsmen. It’s the brother I am against. His brother is a nice enough man and I have no personal beef with him. However, his wife is a nightmare, and I want to ask him not to ask his brother because of her. For the following explanation and examples, let’s call her W. I’ll refer to DP’s brother as BIL.

W is manipulative. She’s passive aggressive. Shes mean. But mostly, she's controlling and a total drama queen. I am worried that asking BIL to be involved will essentially mean that she will be, by default, involved and will hold everyone to ransom for silly things. E.g:

1. W treats BIL like shit. BIL has had counselling and is depressed. He wont leave her though because in their country fathers have no real rights on a divorce and she has threatened to stop him seeing the kids. Whenever he is involved in anything, she has to know everything about it and be involved too. She checks his phone and gives her 2 cents at all times. BIL actually has a secret phone at work for calling family so she doesn't know.

1. DP and BIL have a brother who is married to a lady called S. W will not talk to S and absolutely hates her. They haven't been in the same room for years because W prevents BIL from seeing the other brother and S. We all have to make sure not to mention S or even the other brother in front of W. There is no good reason for this, though consensus is that she just doesn’t like that BIL and S used to have mutual friends etc. More importantly, when the other brother and S got married, BIL and W were invited and W caused mayhem. She tried to tell everyone that she had no issue with them, but BIL did, so she and the kids should go alone without BIL. Nobody believed this or was having any of it so she was told it was both her and BIL or nobody. They RSVPed saying they would go, but there was no sign of them. Halfway through dinner, they turned up, wanting to make an entrance during one of the speeches – her in a cream dress – but they were duly prevented from entering by half of DP's family. W now considers that she was hard done by and that this was all awful. It's caused so many rows since that I can absolutely see similar issues arising next year.

1. Recently, BIL and W were supposed to visit us. At the last minute, BIL called DP to say W was upset and didnt want to come because DP had excluded them from a private family facebook account. BIL had previously been asked if he wanted to join but declined because S uploads pics of her kids on there. W had insisted that BIL call DP to shout at him about this. After DP told him where to go, 15 mins later BIL called back from his secret phone to apologise and explain that she was forcing him to do this, even though he knew it was all rubbish. DP wasn't having any of it so they did visit but she goaded BIL into mentioning it again later, which caused an almighty row between BIL and DP in a pub.

1. Before BIL and W's wedding, W announced that she didnt like the fascinator MIL had chosen. 2 days later a new fascinator turned up on the doorstep of MIL's house. MIL didn't wear it. Cue more rows.

1. At BIL and W's wedding, W refused to enter the reception until MIL removed her jacket as it was too similar a colour to W's own mother's dress. BIL had to go and get her and calm her down. She wouldn't speak to MIL all day after that.

1. Other 2 groomsmen live overseas so can't organise the stag do. If BIL is asked that will be his role. But BIL isn't generally allowed out, so W will have some sort of control over what is allowed / will cause issues. Usually, when BIL goes out she calls over and over with various issues until he cracks and goes home.

My concern re the wedding is that we can't win. She's a drama queen and everything has to be on her terms.

If we ask BIL to be a groomsman, she will have some issue 2 days before which will hold us all to ransom - we'll have paid for a suit and arranged thinsg around 3 groomsmen and we'll have to appease her to ensure things continue smoothly, no matter what she asks. I imagine it will be something to do with other brother and S, but tbh it could be anything...

If we don;t ask him though, she will bitch that he has been left out - particularly as DP was a groomsman at their wedding.

My view is that we dont ask him as it's too risky, and we tell BIL why. He can then explain to his wife why this is such a nightmare. DP thinks it's better to have him and just deal with whatever issues she creates nearer the time. What do you think?

*EDIT: other brother isnt in contention for groomsman for other reasons - nothing relevant to this and nothing to do with him personally, but more logistics. He is fine with this.

I would have your BIL as usher/groomsman as W sounds like such an utter nightmare, she is going to cause problems in either case so it is a choice of a) have brother and she causes trouble or b) dont have brother, hurt brother, cause a row and she still causes trouble. If your BIL is more involved, you might get a heads-up on what she is planning at the very least - keep your friends close but your enemies closer!!

I would have him as a groomsman but organise things with an assumption that he won't be there on the day. The cost of the suit would be yours anyway wether he attends or not. The groomsmen can organize a stag even if they are abroad. They can enlist a few friends to to the organisation commitee.

I know people like to say that nothing is required form bridesmaids and groomsmen but I kinda disagree. I do think those roles do come with duties, but I also think that the person close enough to ask me is someone I want to do those duties for.

I think your DP should decide.
But my instinct is to have DBIL as groomsman, rather than start the wedding planning with a great big row about not including him - that would give her ammunition to kick start her interference.
Keep your enemies close. And show DBIL that he is loved, valued and has the support of his family.

You need to change your mental attitude. How could you realistically ruin your day? None of the things mentioned would ruin my day.
You could pre-plan to get another male eg Fil or your brother, to step in and ask her to leave, call security, escort her off the premises, if the worst came to the worst?

I'd prepare. Talk to Dh and other people about what she might do and then just let it go!

And yes I'd choose him. So what if the sil does something. So what if the 3rd suit money for brother is wasted. Small price to pay. You Dp has his 2 best mates anyway.

I honestly don't see the problem? Will she cause a fight? Throw the table with your wedding cake over? Spit in your mums face?

What's the worst that can happen?

So you don't want your future husband to choose his brother to be a groomsman at your wedding because his brothers wife is controlling? Can you not see the irony in this? You're trying to control your future husband too!
He should choose who he wants, and you lot should ignore the wife.

I think it’s terrible that you don’t want your future husband to have his own brother in his wedding.

If she’s that disruptive then whatever you do or don’t do will make no difference anyway.

History suggests she’s going to attempt to cause some drama whatever you do, so I don’t see how not having BIL as a groomsman helps at all - presumably they’ll be invited either way. Let your DP have his brother involved in his wedding. Don’t make your BIL miss out because his partner is abusive. I don’t know what you gain by not having him as a groomsman and telling him the reason, as you’ve suggested - it sounds like he’s aware her behaviour is unacceptable but is desperately trying to keep contact with his kids?

in their country fathers have no real rights on a divorce and she has threatened to stop him seeing the kids

Can you gently encourage him to take independent legal advice to ascertain whether this is really the case? It may be something she has him believing, but which isn't necessarily the case.

From a PP: If you do that you’d be on your way to being as controlling as your SIL. This should be your DP’s decision not yours.

Absolutely not. There are two people involved in this wedding, not just one. I'd fully expect my DP to discuss it with me if a potential bridesmaid caused similar ructions within my family.

That said, I do agree with supporting BiL in recognizing his abusive relationship, and in asking him to be groomsman if that's what your DP wants. Just ensure you're not relying on anything essential so it won't affect the wedding if he doesn't show. In that eventuality, you're just talking about a suit.

There is little point in giving them a 'come to Jesus' talk beforehand about behaving themselves or else. It's hardly likely to be effective on someone who thrives on drama in this way and goes all out to spoil every special occasion. You may as well save your breath.

The idea of additional wedding security with a brief about W beforehand is an excellent idea. You know she'll create a drama no matter what the circumstances, so it's best to have measures in place on the day that will anticipate and hopefully minimize these.

Can you salvage something out of the situation by laughing up your sleeves at her moronic behaviour? It seems a pity to allow the run-up to one of the most exciting times of your life marred because of this unpleasant character.

Lastly, congratulations!

People in your family and close circle know exactly what she's like. If she kicks off beforehand, on the day, day after.. whenever then people will see it for what it is.

It will not reflect badly on you, it will reflect badly on her.

Pay no attention to her. Let her have her toddler tantrums. Let her have her opinion. It sounds like they don't live in the same country as you (you mention "the country they live in") so realistically her opinion and trouble can't do too much damage from afar.

On the day, if anyone starts causing trouble, the hotel staff who are used to this as part of the job will discretely remove her. If she won't go discretely, then she'll only be making a show of herself, not anyone else.

Your fiancé, knowing as much as he knows about her, still wants to include his brother. I think you are being a bit unreasonable to exclude him because of the actions of his wife. If your sister was married to an abusive man, would you consider excluding her because of him?

By excluding the brother you are helping her by alienating him from his family and friends. Exactly what she wants.

I don’t see why your BIL should suffer and be excluded and isolated from his own brothers wedding just because his wife is emotionally not abusing him.

Just because his wife IS emotionally abusing him , that should say

How much do you hate her?
Can you prime as many guests as possible that if she makes a scene they follow your lead and give her a standing ovation?

I would totally do this but I'm also VERY hard to upstage 😂

I agree with the PP. BIL is in an abusive relationship. He needs support and reassurance his family are with him 100% not to be excluded because of his abuser.

I would include him. Give him a reading/ welcoming duty at the venue. Ask him to collaborate with your fiancé on the stag prep but it's not his responsibility because W will skupper it. If BIL holds less "power" over the stag and the big day then W's tantrums will feel more entertaining and less devastating

BIL might not even want to be a groomsman knowing what sort of trouble his wife could cause? Your partner needs to talk to him. If he wants to be then I think he should be allowed personally. It’s crazy to keep pandering to the witch.

How about just not tell her that BIL is a groomsman till the last second?

Yes she sounds controlling but tbh so do you.

Er ... no. The OP is not the one who is abusing her partner, going through his phone, wrecking other people's weddings and threatening to take away children. Saying 'I don't want this insane woman to ruin my wedding' is absolutely nowhere near on the scale of what this horrific wife of the OP's BIL is doing, and to suggest that they are comparable is grossly minimising domestic abuse - which is, let's face it, what is happening to the BIL.

Personally, I would ask him to be groomsman (whatever that is - is it like an usher) but ensure that he doesn't have a role that is absolutely essential on the day and could be covered by someone else at the last minute. I don't see why the BIL, who is the victim of his wife's abuse, should miss out - it's just isolating him further rather than supporting him.

The stag do thing is a non-issue. It doesn't matter who organises the stag do. It can be someone else, or your DP can organise it himself. You don't have to run a wedding in accordance with the rules and traditions you've read in a wedding magazine, you know. You can be flexible.

I think it's your partners decision. Not yours. By deciding who he can and can't have makes you also controlling. The issues you mention are not about you directly.

It sounds as if your whole day is going to be dictated to by this woman whatever you decide.

Unfortunately your BIL has huge drama attached to his life.

I wouldn't want the low level stress that this brings coming up to my wedding.

If that is selfish, so be it.

I think you need to have a frank conversation with your DP as to what will be the reality of the wedding if BIL and wife are near the day.

BIL needs to help himself. Hopefully he will do that in the future.

However, in the meantime I think you are entitled to a peaceful wedding.

I think your DP could explain this to your BIL and hopefully he will understand that him being involved with the wedding, and by extension his wife will spoil your special day because of the drama that their relationship brings with them.

Alternatively, you head off and get married quietly and have a party later with everyone invited, no assigned roles.

Best of luck.

Part of domestic abuse is isolating someone from their support network. By not including your BIL because of his wife's behaviour you are falling into her trap.

Include him as a groomsman.

There are loads of little jobs you can set aside for him if you want that can easily be taken over by someone else e.g. do a reading, be responsible for any wedding presents on the day, be the one responsible for ensuring people get to the reception on time.

Make sure you place him and SIL on a table where you know people will openly not put up with any of her nasty behaviour. I suspect, knowing a couple of women like this in the past, she will keep quiet and sulk. She will then get pissed off with him and start an argument with him at the end of the day.

I'd be inclined to get your DP and BIL to talk together and work out what they think is possible with the least disruption.

Your DP can organise his own stag do, if he wants one. It doesn't have to be organised by another party.

If she kicks off about things I'd thank her for her input and no more. Let her know she's being heard but then ignore anything you don't want to do.

DH and I had a very chilled out wedding/run up overall. We did have one family member who tried to cause problems - DH and I decided that if we were pushed into a corner we would cancel the whole thing and do something else. This actually gave us the confidence to stand our ground and said family member was far more invested in image than we were (are) and we couldn't give a fuck if we pissed them off!

@1stmonkey you think we havent tried to support him? His stock answer is "i can't do anything because of the kids" and then he refuses to discuss further. The next we hear is something has gone down and he's back on the secret phone. It's not for us to create further stress and hassle for him by calling her out on her behaviour unless it directly affects us to an extent that we cant manage. that has happened a few times - FIL has had a go when she's upset MIL, but generally everyone walks on eggshells because of the kids. As @changeitchild says, we dont want to alienate him further so we try to put up with it in the hope that as soon as the youngest kid is 16 he will leave her.

We have of course told him to take legal advice. I think he did once see a solicitor actually. But whatever he was told just made him stay.

To those asking what the big deal is re groomsmen, DP is from a country where everything is very traditional. It's an honour to be asked to participate. From my side, I will be hiring suits for the groomsmen, buying them thank you gifts etc - so to be blunt i just dont want to waste cash on someone who will inevitably be prevented from participating by his batshit wife at the 11th hour anyway. I'm actually less concerned about the actual day than i am about her creating mayhem 2 days before with her demands and drama.

@oblomov19 - what's the worst that can happen? She could decide at the last minute to try to stop BIL going to his own brother's wedding because she has leverage if he is involved. She could make MIL cry yet again, as she has countless times before. She could shout and scream at S yet again. She could create a terrible atmosphere which isnt fair on anyone. I could go on. I think these are all reasons to have her as uninvolved as possible. If BIL is involved, she will by defintion be involved.

Thanks to the person who said I am controlling. I think it was
soontobe60. But as I haven't actually prevented DP from having BIL as a groomsman (I have just given my opinion and then come on here to ask you lot yours) and nor do I intend to actually give him any sort of ultimatum about it - i merely think I should have a say and as I am unhappy about it I will tell him, as I would expect him to do the other way round - I would say I'm not particularly controlling thank you very much.

Re the stag do, yes I agree with you all that DP should just organise his own. He's useless at these things though so I think he was hoping for help. Having said that, it's not the biggest issue so I take your comments on board on that one.

Could you ask both brothers to be witnesses or do readings? That way they are both involved but neither are groomsmen? I just wonder if he is a groomsmen if she will then use that to stir up other brother and s about the fact he isn’t one? Also if it’s just a reading or a witness it’s easy to find someone else to step in?

@cloudyapples - for various reasons other brother is not an issue. I wont go into detail, but he has a severe disability which limits his ability and interest in involvement.

OP, having read your update no, I don't think YABU. It's ridiculous for one person to be holding your entire family to ransom in this way. What a pity about the situation with the children. They are her trump card in this game, and she knows it.

I thought my own SiL (happily I've long since been NC with her) was a passive-aggressive, drama-loving, selfish, negative-vibe-merchant, but compared to the sound of your 'W' she's positively benign! You have my full sympathies. It's exhausting dealing with a family member like this, who in any other circumstances you wouldn't give the time of day.

I really hope she doesn't manage to spoil your wedding.