to think we need to knock the bacteria bothering on the head?

[OtraCosaMariposa]

So unless you've been living under a rock we all know that single use plastics are bad, too much air travel is bad and that we're killing the planet with "stuff".

Just as important is the fact that bacteria are becoming resistant and that we haven't the new antibiotics to fight them. I know a lot of this si down to misuse of antibiotics, people not finishing the course or keeping old medication and popping it when they feel off colour. But I also think a lot of it is down to the sheer range of "anti-bacterial" products on sale.

The latest advert which really gave me the rage was for an anti-bacterial carpet cleaner, think it was Vax, which droned on about did you know how much BACTERIA there is in your carpet accompanied by pictures of children playing on the floor. Just like the "ewww, bacteria on your washing!!" adverts.

Do we really need to nuke all bacteria out of existence? Or do we collectively not need to chill out a bit, stop the paranoia about germs/bacteria and go back to basic cleaning with soap and water??

Anti-bac is banned in this house.

@SeroxatBlonde I have a white sink so I use about half a bottle on that and down the plug hole, plug holes over the rest of the house, toilet, bath tub etc

No anti-bac stuff here either. Method or Ecover washing up liquid and loo cleaner. We use hot soapy water, vinegar and bicarb to clean most things. A bottle of bleach lasts us years as it is only used if we have a d&v bug. We very rarely get them. I use a mixture of washing up liquid and water in a plant spray for quick wipes e.g. table after dinner with a dish cloth. Dishcloths only used for one day then put in the wash.

The 2 families I know who seem to be constantly ill have spotless houses, bleach everything and use loads of air fresheners. I'm sure it's all making them ill.

Line drying eliminates smells and stains

I buy bleach probably once a year, then for the drains

Bacteria are necessary for our continued existance. People confuse them with pathogenic bacteria that make you ill and think all bacteria are bad.

It's one of the things that drives me nuts when people report on the amount of bacteria on items. There is more bacteria on your chopping board/keyboard/mobile phone than on your toilet seat. Look how much bacteria is in the hand dryer. Umm so what. The vast, vast, vast majority of bacteria species are completely and utterly neutral to our us. They exist, we exists, nobody notices. Of the minority that do have an effect on us, the majority have a mildly positive effect and we suffer without them. Of the minority left that have a negative effect, it's actually good for us to be exposed to them in constant small doses as it improves our immune function.

And then there is a tiny, tiny fraction of a percentage of species that we really should avoid. Still most of those will just make us sick for a little bit and then we'll be fine, usually even without antibiotics. But by acting like all bacteria are the same, attempting to wipe out all the bacteria in our surroundings, reducing our exposure, taking antibiotics unnecessarily, etc we make the dangerous ones stronger and create real and severe risk.

It's so fucking stupid. I was prescribed absolutely countless amounts of antibiotics as a child and teenager (and had my tonsils removed) for what I worked out myself at 18 was an allergy. I not only had throat problems from the allergy but I had near constant oral thrush from all the fucking antibiotics. But at no point did any medical professional notice I was taking antibiotics multiple times a year throughout my life and consider investigating why. I'm very wary of how fast doctors prescribe antibiotics now. I've so often had a friend tell me they took their child to a doctor who diagnosed a viral infection and prescribed antibiotics!!!!!!!! I know that bacterial infections can be co-morbid with viral infections but prophylactically prescribing antibiotics like that is ridiculous. I know we've been quite lucky in that my DS has never been exposed to a severe bacterial infection but he's nearly 7 and has never had antibiotics. It drives me a bit nuts that by that age I'd already taken numerous courses.

l'm 60. When l was a child we lived in a terraced flat (pretty much along the lines of Coronation Street when it first started).
The only sink was the kitchen sink. We had an outside toilet and no bathroom.
We played outside in the back lane, got dirty, and had our hands and face washed before we went to bed. We had a tin bath which we used once a week.
lf a little one dropped a dummy or a lolly, whoever was closest would put it in their own mouth or give it a rinse under a tap if there was one handy, (which wasn't often) then give it back to the little one. Of course l'm not saying we should do that these days, but we also don't need to sterilise everything within an inch of it's life.
l don't remember any kids having allergies. The only one l've ever had (and still have) was to certain antibiotics, the same as my dad.
Of course we need to be hygienic. But this obsession with obliterating every bacterium known to man is ridiculous. Children need to get a bit dirty to build up an immunity. As pp have said, unless you're severely immuno-compromised, it's unnecessary and ridiculous.

@ineedaholidaynow yes I work full time (although currently on mat leave) I fit it in by getting up earlier and doing as much as I can before work, then get home and finish off, and usually a quick clean before bed too. I run a very strict schedule 😂

@Sicktobloodydeath
Do you have kids?

Breathing in that shit is doing your (and their) lungs no good.
Mixing the chemicals you're using to clean is dangerous!
You could quite easily end up killing yourself with the chemical gasses released by mixing 'cleaning' products.

I have a white sink so I use about half a bottle on that and down the plug hole, plug holes over the rest of the house, toilet, bath tub etc but Zolflora is a disenfectant not a cleaner ,some cream cleaner like CIF will work on a white sink.

YANBU I think there are way too many products these days, like the amount of crap that people like Hinch are promoting. I couldn't believe the amount of products she was continuing to use whilst she was pregnant. I have an antibac spray for the kitchen that I use at night and I probably bleach the toilets once a week. I don't use wipes in my house, they are so bad for the environment and I like using reusable cloths anyway.

sicktoo that must be a joke? You must spend all day cleaning. We've had our sofas about 3 years & I washed the covers for the first time in the hot weather, and that was only because the car was sick on one. I've never sprayed them with anything. As for all the other stuff...

I never knew Zoflora existed until I read about it on here.

My whole family is Doctors. We sterilise baby bottles (until 6 months or crawling stage) with the milk and cuts and wounds -but that's it. I steam mop the wood floors after sweeping but that's only because the dogs, chickens etc wonder in and out of the house. The table etc is cleaning with boiling water as were high chairs. No wipes here.
Cotton wool for grazes, cut and injuries -and dettol.
We don't run to antibiotics first and cool packs stay in the fridge. Calpol for temperature. The dogs sleep on some sofas (not all we have a lounge where they don't) and beds -but not under covers. My dogs are defleaed etc to within an inch of their lives as they are working dogs and that way I'm happy. The most disgusting creatures on Earth -humans without a doubt. But........my kids play outside and with their animals all day every dau so provided they wash with soap before eating and drinking and before bed I don't care. Mine children vary from the immunity of an ox to one prone with sinus problems but they need exposure to bacteria and viruses etc to build up immunity. Like my animals my children are also vaccinated up to the hilt because I believe in vaccination to protect those that can't have it. But bugs etc -crack on soap and water here.

Bacteria is the foundation of all life on earth. They are the starting point from which all species evolved and are the bottom of the food chain that sustains all life. We need to learn to love bacteria, appreciate that only a few are significantly harmful to us and the vast majority are essential to life. If you are sloshing antibacterial products all over the place you are slaughtering all the good bacteria along with the tiny minority of bad bacteria.

@SeroxatBlonde sorry I thought you were referring to bleach, zoflora I go through by putting it in washing and the mop bucket

Can we also just acknowledge that the overuse of antibiotics in intensive factory farming is a big factor in bacteria resistant. This needs to be addressed as well as our overuse of anti bac stuff.

I grew up around horses and dirt but I have countless autoimmune issues including being immunosuppressed
I don't really use anti bac, I have had over 70 (maybe more) courses of antibiotics. My cleaning/pet care stuff turns my consultant green but he agrees that I never ever get stomach bugs so I'm doing something right! Mostly tonsillitis and chest infections for me

YANBU.

www.theguardian.com/science/2018/dec/30/children-leukaemia-mel-greaves-microbes-protection-against-disease

'"For an immune system to work properly, it needs to be confronted by an infection in the first year of life,” says Greaves. Without that confrontation with an infection, the system is left unprimed and will not work properly.”
And this issue is becoming an increasingly worrying problem. Parents, for laudable reasons, are raising children in homes where antiseptic wipes, antibacterial soaps and disinfected floorwashes are the norm. Dirt is banished for the good of the household.

In addition, there is less breast feeding of infants and a tendency for them to have fewer social contacts with other children. Both trends reduce babies’ contact with germs. This has benefits – but also comes with side effects. Because young children are not being exposed to bugs and infections as they once were, their immune systems are not being properly primed.'

@SeaSaltandLime I’m due to give birth next week - DC1.

I do understand I’m excessive with cleaning, more so the products used than the amount of cleaning, I really am trying to reign it in. But there’s a part of my mind that feels the house needs to be sterilised before the baby gets here.

Not that this is the only reason I clean like this, I actually don’t know. I think it’s a combination of being paranoid about the house smelling like dogs, and being raised in a fucking clinically sanitised household with my lunatic mother (I’ve done a previous thread about her).
I was always absolutely hammered about cleaning and tidying at home, shortly before I left home, we had a massive argument because I was making cheese on toast under the grill and didn’t put it on a plate - IN THE GRILL - because crumbs would drop onto the grill tray. She’d also stand with a hoover and hoover crumbs directly from me if I was eating crisps for example.

DP gets pissed off because he says the house is like chemical warfare after I’ve cleaned, I do see his point.

But it’s also the pressure of other people as his family and my friends always joke about how clean I am - it may sound silly but now it’s something I feel I’ve got to keep up. I have nightmares of people visiting and there’s a load of washing in the basket 😂 I’m laughing as I type this but it’s true

Thanks for the therapy

Asides from the good bacteria being wiped out..

Cleaning products being mixed like that are going to cause problems for whoever is ingesting them.

Bleach + Ammonia = Chloramine vapour. If enough ammonia is added that then = hydrazine. With has potential to be explosive.

Bleach + Vinegar(or lemon, or toilet cleaner) = Chlorine Gas

Carpet shampoos can contains ingredients such as perchlorethylene; a carcinogen that can damage your kidneys and nervous system.

Certain scents of Zoflora contain something called Butylbenzyl Propionaldehyde which can cause damage to fertility and the unborn.

It's not just a case of cleaning your house. These are chemicals that shouldn't be fucked about with.
Unbelievable that most of them are on sale when in reality you don't need much more than soap and hot water.

Norovirus isn't a bacterium, it's a virus. One of the most infectious around - only around 10 particles needed to infect someone. I wouldn't trust a rinse around with soap and water to prevent it.
Except ( actual question) didn t it originally arrive in hospitals because of a lack of hygiene when dealing with patients? I'm nearly sure they traced it back to less hand washing which means soap and hot water would prevent it?

Agree. Plain bleach used sparingly is way less damaging and more effective when you really need to kill everything (loo, dilute spray around the bathroom and occasional boil wash to clear out the machine). Other than that soap and hot water is good enough.

Household aside though, I think the biggest, most easily resolved problem is systematic overuse of antibiotics in meat farming. Solution is for everyone to eat less/no meat. Most of the other lifestyle changes we need to make are difficult without wider system change but that one’s really straightforward and highly impactful.

Sicktobloodydeath please don't spend all your maternity leave once your baby is here cleaning the house. Firstly you want to spend time with your baby and secondly all those cleaning products will not be good for your child. Also as they get older they may end up with your hang ups.

Where do you work, is it as clean as your house?

We have a white sink too, it only gets bleached if either of our mothers come to stay

Our house is clean enough in the bits I think matters, but I don't clean excessively and we have pets so I'm sure there's god knows what going on. But we are never ill. My DP hasn't had a day off work, well, ever. And DD is 6mo and aside from a very slight cold she caught from us at around 2mo (which we caught from a family member), has never been ill. And she sits on our manky non-antibacterial carpet on a regular basis I don't really have the energy to get worked up about uber cleanliness. I'm careful with food prep and nappy changing area, rest of the house I just kind do what I can when I think it needs it.

@Celebelly I read that at the time, it’s a fascinating article

@Sicktobloodydeath I understand, I do.

But, the environment you're sterilising for your baby isn't going to be healthy for them.
The chemicals are extremely dangerous.
See my other post - we're talking potential to kill, cause cancer, damage fertility and harm unborn babies...

Using those chemicals around your baby is going to be to their detriment.

If you feel it's encroaching on your life that much then it may be worthwhile you speaking to someone about it before baby arrives.
You really don't want to be spending the time when you're newborn is so small shampooing (clean) carpets and pouring bottles of bleach down the sink.
It's not healthy for you or the baby.