To throw away DD'S toys because she acts like a wild animal?

[MrsZlatan]

My DD has just turned four and I am at the end of my tether. She is the youngest of four - the older ones are boys.

Since she was little she has always seemed more intense (if that's the right word) than my sons.

She still sleeps in bed with me at night and in four years has slept in her own bed only once when her brother slept beside her which she is adament she's not doing again. She kicks me, pulls the covers off me and has comprised my relationship with dp - all of which I've put up with and went along with thinking she would soon grow out of sleeping with me.

Recently, she has taken to refusing to do pretty much anything asked - if it involves tidying up her toys (which she throws about with wild abandon) she screams at the top of her voice, scratches me which hurts, hits me and holds her breath and pants with temper and glares at me like she hates me. I don't understand why she is so angry and defiant when she can be so charming funny, smart and engaging.

I'm not a shouty person but twice these holidays I've lost my rag after giving her chance after chance to pick up her toys and her throwing my things around deliberately in temper. I shouted at her that I would throw her toys in the bin if she wouldn't pick them up which made her even worse understandably.

She can tidy up, she understands everything but she just refuses point blank to do it and will resort to violence she is honestly like a wild animal - I don't know what to do or how to put any consequence in place. We tried the thinking/cool down step but she ended up sobbing and screaming she was sorry which upset me.

Do I need to get tough and get rid of her stuff? I think this will make her worse and dig her heels in even more and resent me. Or do I give up and follow her around tidying up for her, getting her shoes on her, taking her dinner plate into the kitchen to avoid the wild animal side?

Sorry it's so long. I wanted to provide an accurate picture of her character and personality.

Firstly do not let her control you. Her behaviour is unacceptable. So what if she got upset on the cool down step she put put herself there.
I wouldn't give into her and same as PP said if you say you're going to put her toys in the bin you need to follow through with what you say, don't make empty threats.
Definitely say no to her getting into your bed.
Does her behaviour impact your sons lives?
It's time to take back control before she gets bigger m

Your DD has you trained well!

Screaming and threats aren't going to help things.

I agree with 3 day rule and take a parenting class.

Decide what method of discipline you'll do and stick with it.

Being inconsistent, she knows that if she tantrums long enough you'll give up and she gets to do what she wants.

I also agree with putting most of the toys up so there are just some to play with. Then you can swap them out over time.

Create a bedtime routine where she goes in her bed and stick to it every time.

Don't tell her over and over to do something and she just ignores you and there is no consequence. Decide how many times 1 or 2 and then consequence and do it every time.

Yes, it will be hard at first, very hard as you've let this go on too long and she will try to wear you down but ignore and try to remain calm and be consistent.

Once you get her in her bedroom, then you can create a daily structure. Some kids needs more structure than others.

I have to laugh at all the disorders trotted out whenever a kid is bratty.
It's up to you to teach them behaviours. They're not just going to learn it by magic.

No screens. More studies are finding out how damaging screen time is on children's brains. Some develop virtual autism.

Anyway, it's going to be difficult at first but you can do it. Good luck.

I'd store her toys and let her have a small amount at a time to play with, as I really have no experience in what you describe. But for not tidying up when asked, I did store them, and only allowed a few out at a time.

Good luck, sounds stressful!

I'd just tell her she's hilarious
And put the toys away except for a few
Don't bin them. Get in charge. Binning them means you've lost

Sounds like Pathological Demand Avoidance to me - DS2 is similar. Rephrasing the requests has really helped for toys/getting dressed/general life.

For the sleeping situation, you need to find a compromise solution that will lead her back to her own bed down the line. Not sure what that might be but maybe discussing it with her and letting her feel she has a little control over the situation may help...

You've all been very kind when I feel like such a failure.

Her brothers are 11,17 and 21 (at uni). Her 11 y brother is affected by her - he says she spoils things because she just gets her own way all the time.

Her brothers never acted the way she does nowhere near and I've not done anything differently - I'm very laid back which obviously worked for them but has not/ is not working for her. I just foolishly presumed she would be the same!

Yes DP is her Dad and he loses his temper more than I do and shouts which (and I'm cringing writing this) I think I try and compensate for by being nice to her because I don't like shouting and punishments - he wanted naughty step but I managed to negotiate it to the thinking step. I also tell him not to shout so he then gives up because he thinks I'm having a go at him and it's left to me...

It seems so obvious written down that it's all my fault she is such a spoiled brat.
She went to nursery and was fine there the staff said. They said "if she doesn't want to do something she won't do it!" And laughed it off... So I've never seen it be a problem except for at home.

You are right she does rule the roost. The bedroom issue at first was OK and acceptable because I took my iPad with my and watched Netflix. Four years down the line when she's bigger and sleeps like a starfish is not so acceptable. I was hoping that when she starts school she will feel more like a big girl and try going back to her room.

She is up for the idea of school- no outward anxiety. Has willingly and happily bought uniform, tried it on, parades around in her school shoes etc.

I am the parent here. There are some really good suggestions here for me to be getting on with. Starting by thinning down her toys. She has got loads and loads (a lot of ds old ones) and I keep buying her more .

Thank you

I used to put the toys in the dreaded 'big black bin bag' , I never threatened to throw them away, but they went in the garage for a while. Eventually I only had to mention the bin bag and the children were scurrying around tidying up! I don't know why it struck them with such fear, but it was like the bogey man or something

I talk about the bin bag but haven’t yet had to deploy it.
Think of it as you’ve lost your way and got into a negative pattern, not failed. You can find your way again.
My DD loves racing to get ready but otherwise will faff so much. I even challenge her to race the cat which breaks the ice because obviously the cat isn’t getting ready. It’s hard when you’re caught in the cycle of feeling like a failure and relying on shouting but humour and being silly really helps them engage

I second the pp saying look at pda

PDA is on the autistic spectrum but does from "straight up autism" as much as it is like autism. Therefore some (a lot) of the broad 'Universal truths' of autism might not apply.

If it is pda then all her behaviour will be mediated by anxiety, which often translates as an aggressive response

I have to laugh at all the disorders trotted out whenever a kid is bratty.
Good for you, you just carry on laughing then while the rest of us continue to manage these "disorders" day in, day out.

My advice would be to start using the naughty step again (don't call it that in front of her though), maybe say "ok you need a time out to calm down". Put her there, 4 minutes, don't pay attention to the screaming, she's not going to die. After that speak to her about why she had to sit there and what she should do next time instead of throwing a tantrum ie. you need to talk to mummy instead of hitting/throwing toys etc. I'd also get her in her own bed. Start on a Friday evening so you've got the weekend to tackle it. It might be a case of putting her back 20 times a night but you HAVE to be consistent. It won't take long at age 4 to get the concept that she is not to sleep in your bed any more. It's hard but you have to be firm. Take back control. YOU are the mum, she needs to respect that. You don't have to shout but you do need to be in charge.
Also, if you're finding it really hard to do any of this you can speak to your HV and get help with strategies. Don't feel like you have to do it on your own if you're not confident in doing so.

I have to laugh at all the disorders trotted out whenever a kid is bratty

It must be lovely to look at these descriptions and not be reminded of your own child who has a condition/s that will impact them and their whole family and many people involved with them for their entire life. And to even find it funny? I can't imagine that myself.

Removing all the toys is just punishing you. She'll find something (furniture, light fittings) that will end up damaged. Been there, done that and it's really not worth it.

Severely limiting the number of toys, however, can work. Sometimes they have too much choice and can't compute what to do. So clear choice: Lego in the bedroom, drawing at the table, jigsaw on the floor.

At that age "tidy up" means nothing, especially if they have too much to look after. You need to really direct and do it with them. Split it into manageable sections. You pick up your books and I'll put them on the bookcase kind of thing.

Also direct language. No please do x, instead you need to do x. Formulate it so it's not a question.

She sounds utterly spoiled to me.....

Are you fucking sure, bluebeck?
You sound like an ill-educated, thoughtless moron.

She is obviously struggling hugely to regulate her emotions. I really feel for you, OP. I've experienced this kind of behaviour.

I practiced attachment parenting with my first (now 28 years old) daughter. With my second (nearly 5) she is on the pathway for an ASD diagnosis. Her brother is very disabled by his autism.

I'd have had my first assessed for ASD if it'd been trendy back then. God knows, she's definitely autistic. As am I. (Diagnosed in my 50s.)

Regardless of actual diagnoses, I feel for you. Whatever the case, she's struggling. Poor lamb.

Another who agrees with other PPs. I read your OP and this sort of behaviour sounds like a child who is unable to manage their emotions. A child who may well have a diagnosable condition or not, but one who is struggling to cope with demands, and also transitioning between activities. Does she seem happy? Like she wants to be like this?
Yes, look at PDA strategies. Less direct command and demands, more indirect. You've seen how the shouting escalates things. A visual timer, such as the Time Timer might forewarn your DD of the end of an activity.
Try to remember that she is a 4 year old child struggling and you are the adult who she needs to bring calm to all the chaos, not add to it. She's not giving you a hard time, she's having a hard time.

And yes, love that so many of you are so smug about OP's DD and how you wouldn't ever 'let' your child behave like that. Those of us with kids with additional needs know that you can't possibly know that you could do any better as you have no idea what is causing the behaviour. This is not the OP's first child so surely that's a clue that just because your kids are fine, doesn't mean you are super parent, just that you manage your own DCs which may be a doddle compared to this one!

BTW, this sounds absolutely normal for the 4 year old crazy phase. Everyone I know who has girls could have written the exact same thing when their DD's were 4-5. You need to keep your cool and be patient and remember that she is only 4.

SouthernLands Mine was not, I know many of her pals from preschool age they were not.
My DD was much calmer than DS.

I would also say that having a condition does not preclude a child from occasionally being actively naughty. DS2 sometimes obviously struggles to listen to what I am saying, while at other times he flouts authority with a gay abandon. It is hard to discern exactly where the line is between what he can't do and what he won't do, but as parents we are ideally situated to find this out over time!! You'll do it OP, don't worry.

OP, I started reading your latest reply, and thought maybe you had taken a bit on advice on board, and might start being kinder. Until you referred to a 4 year old struggling with her emotions, and her parents shouting at her and stressing her out/threatening to throw her toys away, as a “spoiled brat”. Your own child 😳

She isn’t on the spectrum she’s just a naughty kid. Don’t label her autistic, some girls can be madams you just need to change your tactic and not take it personally when she plays up. I’m sure she will grow out of it. Have you tried to calm down the family home from being too stimulating? Try playing some calm relaxation music in the background and in the evenings turn the lights way down and have the tv on low if on at all.

She is spoiled though I know she is and whilst I recognise I have spoiled her I've created a monster.. and I mean that in the most loving way possible. There is no malice and I have never called her a name. I'm far too soft and I find it very difficult to impart any kind of discipline, I don't even like the word.
I think it stems back from my childhood when I was hit and snacked and I used to lie in bed feeling such hatred towards my parents and vowing to myself if I had kids I would never do that.

Whilst my laid back approach worked for my son's she is a different kettle of fish altogether. She is so strong willed and headstrong.

Today I went into her room and started tidying up on my own and she asked me if I wanted some help 🤔😂

It is so so hard, you have my sympathy. My DS is 3 and a half and currently going through a lovely phase but we've had some horrible weeks/months since before he turned 3 and I definitely lost my cool several times!

Agree with PP you need to reinforce a consistent "punishment" for want of a better word. Why give up on the step because she was upset? That means it's working surely! I use the step for DS only for "aggressive" behaviour, or if he really is pushing something after being told no, and it's a minute for each year so he currently does 3 minutes 30 seconds. He hates it! He always cries etc. Sometimes it means the threat is enough to stop eg if you kick me again you will go on the step.

With the tidying I definitely think removing a favourite toy/s for a short period immediately could work, so if she throws some toys, remove them straight away.

I'll follow for tips as no doubt I'll reach a difficult phase with DS again soon!

I hope you took up her offer of help, OP. You can even make a game of it.

It could well be something like ODD/PDA -if course that would need investigating by professionals.

However, like some posters have said, the way you ask/tell her to do something and the language used can make a huge difference.

In your example of tidying, although she can understand in one sense, it may be that 'tidy up' is simply too broad for her to cope with so she starts screaming etc. because she simply can't cope.
So, you could say something like 'if I put x toy in the box, can you put y toy in the box' or 'can you put all of the bricks in this box' etc. One instruction at a time.

For some children with ODD/PDA the word 'don't ' causes massive problems. Trying my best to think of an example but instead of saying something like 'don't eat your good with your fingers' you say 'please use your fork to eat your food'.

It's hard and you're not a failure at all. Maybe speaking to the GP or health visitor would be a good idea?