To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

The reason is quite important though. If a child says they don't want to be friends with another child because they're a different race for example, would you accept that?

As I have said, I would explain the nature of prejudice and I would not be happy about it. I would tell them that I never wanted to hear them make a racist comment again. I would not force my child to be friends with another child, whatever the reason.

My DD is only 5, and her school report said all the lovely things; that she is always seeking out the kids who are alone to invite them to join in her games, that she will praise other children for good work even if it's not a "high" standard, because she can see how hard they tried etc. And it sums her up completely - she is kind to a fault. I was proud of her, but also sad. I want her to be inclusive and kind, but I want her to have boundaries too. I want her to do things SHE wants to do, and not just spend all her time playing with a child because she knows no one else will. She grew up watching me be a doormat in an abusive marriage before I finally walked, and I could write a book of all the CFs I seem to attract to provide them free childcare etc.

I want to teach her "be kind. Be inclusive. But don't forget YOU are important too, and so are your wants and needs, and you don't have a duty to play with this child. If you've spent all playtime playing with him to ensure he's not alone, the next playtime, it's ok for you to choose what you WANT to do, even if that means he's on his own."

It's tough. I want to keep her kindness, but I can't have her grow up with no boundaries like I did. I don't want her ending up in an abusive marriage because she never learnt to say "no. I don't want to do that"

Bile?
Physician, heal thyself!
Ps - also what the op said.

With physical disabilities people can largely overlook a missing limb or impaired eyesight because they can still have loads in common and enjoyable conversations. You can't remotely compare.

If a child/adult has serious learning difficulties, it is going to be very hard to see beyond that and as you get older the gap in intellectual ability become more difficult to bridge. It is going to be a very special sort of person who would treat them as an actual friend rather than just be polite and nice to them.

But the post about the 3 children with social communication difficulties does really make me think, because people can't see beyond their quirks. I think that's where the OP's point is well made, kids and adults write people off without trying to get to know them a bit first.

Everyone here seems to want inclusivity.

However I guess we can be different in how that can be achieved.

I just think telling some people to accommodate others more than themselves is not a good idea.

However I do agree we set examples for our kids early on - the wider their horizons and the better we teach them to socialize and share, then we do become more inclusive.

So for example if my child talks about a kid in school who talked about fire engines all the time, I’d chat to them about not being mean, about being more open minded. I’d expect the school to be noticing social isolation of pupils. Children who are mean to others like that are showing a general meanness, and I don’t think just telling them to be nice to that person talking about fire engines because they are autistic will help. I think picking up meanness both in our kids and at school will greatly help.

she will praise other children for good work even if it’s not a “high” standard, because she can see how hard they’ve tried
This is your 5 year old?? She certainly does need boundaries, for everyone’s sake

The reason is quite important though. If a child says they don't want to be friends with another child because they're a different race for example, would you accept that?

But I also find it very unlikely that my child would say this to me. They would know I would find it unacceptable. However, I don’t find it unacceptable for my child to say, for example, that they don’t want to be friends with X because (let’s say) X always wants to talk about [whatever the topic is] and they find that very repetitive and it isn’t a two-way friendship because they never get to talk about [insert topic here]. Now, if X has SN and this repetitiveness is a feature of that, you could argue my child was unwilling to be friends ‘because’ of X’s SN. But it isn’t that, really. It is because they don’t enjoy the interactions. It’s not comparable to racism, where the person pre-judges the other person.

Bile?
Physician, heal thyself!

You’ve latched on to me for reasons of your own. I give up on trying to get you to be specific because I don’t think it’s about anything I have said.

actually Zazietgecat said exactly what I mean! Thank you Zazie!

I don’t particularly want to engage with you Hercule, as I don’t think much of the motives or manners of a person who posts repeatedly about the thereotuca future friendship rights of her toddler in order to berate the mother of two disabled children actually experiencing these issues.... But...

I have not berated you. I have only disagreed with you and empathised with you. If you don’t want to engage I am fine with that. Goodnight.

I completely understand op. Ds has just gone back to school on the basis of polite exclusion. He has no friends and no one to play with. Every. He thinks that’s how life is.

He has a visual impairment, socially he’s on par with his peers, except he just about passes out with excitement when someone talks to him.

He’s at cubs, gymnastics, youth club, choir and swimming lessons. He gets some interactions there and he really enjoys them but he spends most of his time at school. We have class parties every year, everyone comes and ignores him there too. He’s been invited to 1 party ever.

Tell what the hell else I’m supposed to do.

100% why we home educate

You can’t have an ‘enjoyable conversation’ with someone with a learning disability?
Even by the standards of this place on a Friday evening that has to be one of the shittiest things I’ve ever read on here.
Jesus.

You can’t have an ‘enjoyable conversation’ with someone with a learning disability?

I hope that isn’t directed at me.

@herculepoirot2

I think the reason you are perceived as coming across negatively is because of the way you chose to interpret the OP as being a forceful right to friendship no matter what, simply because a child is disabled (I interpreted it differently)

Having read your posts again I don't think you mean to "exclude" children based on their disabilities but you want your child to be in a position where she selects her friendships based on her own interests and comfortability whether that child is disabled or not.

Having read your posts again I don't think you mean to "exclude" children based on their disabilities but you want your child to be in a position where she selects her friendships based on her own interests and comfortability whether that child is disabled or not.

Exactly.

How ridiculous to equate this with race. The colour of your skin is not an invasion of another person's space nor is it a social challenging way of engaging with others.

Why do people always use race to to justify things that bear no resemblance to the issues.

SEN is not the same as being black or Asian or Chinese or white. SEN can lead a person (of any race) to behave in ways that can be challenging for others.

Children are not more or less disabled because of how the kids in the playground are.

Oh yes they are. My daughter is very much disabled by her environment, not by her condition. In our adapted house she can go anywhere, do anything, be independent just as her peers are. In her newly built school she can do the same - except for when it comes to playground time. The kids are running about on the grass, up and down hills, in the outdoor huts that she can’t get to. It makes a massive difference to her playtime if the kids decide they are going off to play somewhere she can’t access, or play a game she can’t do.

Disability isn’t just about what a body or mind is capable of, it’s about how the environment is suited to a person.

I really do agree that adults take the lead in showing children the value of lots of different people and that, as has been said already, this can be pretty subtle - like deference or body language. So, the teacher who will read out a story written by a shy child because it is really funny/atmospheric/captivating and appropriately praise the work - classmates then get to see something the shy child would not have resented to them. Opportunity for respect to grow, connections to be made, status to increase, a talent to be nurtured, etc. The parent who notices how another child openly shares in their home or how someone went out of their way to be kind or how hilarious another is. It is all coded info about value being passed. It spreads, the good and the narrow. I find it helpful to talk about, 'still learning' when it comes to my own, my children's or other people's hurtful or harmful behaviour. They're still learning how to manage a big feeling, to find the right words, to listen properly and so on.

I see this from both sides. It upsets me more than it upsets my daughter. From age 6 till 10 she was upset as couldn't understand how different she was and why some kids treated her differently. This broke my heart.

She is now 20 and during the last 6 years I've had to discourage some potential friendships as these were not people I wanted her to be friends with. Ie a girl who latched onto her at school but I couldn't understand her motives, (I was not sure that she was not using dd as the button if her jokes). Then older teens at college in the last few years who lived a lifestyle that I didn't agree with. I didn't want her being friends as she is very easily led and persuaded into behaviours to fit in. (Lifestyle = drinking, smoking, drug taking and lots of sex.)

Its a balancing act and as sad as it is, I can't see a way through.

It does not get easier op and my dd is still isolated but for the most part happy with her own company.

Politeness may be all you get as long as it's with tolerance and kindness then I think that's good enough.

Heymonkey, I just wanted to acknowledge you and say I totally understand. Thanks for that perspective. X

I think i can be guilty of forgetting in the relenting heartbreak of it all that everyone is fighting a battle I know nothing about. And yes the wee girl going the long way to school rather than walk with my son might not have been about him, it might have been about her. And circumstances in her morning that I knew nothing about.

Good to be reminded. Thank you.

Always good to be reminded to think about others when you’re feeling a bit down.

Lots of love to you xxxx

And I promise I do constantly remind my DS that not everyone likes to be touched and to remember to stay out of peoples bubbles. He has a learning disability though, so it’s taking a lot of telling.

As I have said, I would explain the nature of prejudice and I would not be happy about it. I would tell them that I never wanted to hear them make a racist comment again. I would not force my child to be friends with another child, whatever the reason

So you would stand by and allow your child to not want to be friends with someone of a different race to them then?

It’s ok to be a racist, disablist little shit as long as your Mum doesn’t hear you being one, apparently. Explains a lot.

So you would stand by and allow your child to not want to be friends with someone of a different race to them then?

I don’t know how many different ways I can say this: I would not force them to be friends. I am not sure how I would actually force them. I would express - in the strongest terms - my disappointment in them. I would punish any further comments about the colour of another person’s skin.

But my child has a right to choose her own friends.

If your child is only a toddler Hercule, I really hope she doesn't end up alone with noone willing to play with her. You may look back on this thread and wish you had been a little kinder and taught your daughter a little more empathy.