to ask you to STOP using these unhelpful phrases?

[StopCallingMeTeresa]

i apologise if this turns into an essay, but...

"Supply equals demand"
or
(worse) "low milk supply is actually quite rare so probably not your problem"

I've just read yet another MN thread where someone said the 2nd one (basically suggesting that a poster with suspected low milk supply probably wasn't in the "tiny tiny" %age of women who don't produce enough milk). It fucks me right off to keep reading this nonsense on here and other breastfeeding support groups/forums because it makes women feel like their actions or perception of low milk supply are the cause... rather than a genuine medical issue which might never be fixed. If a man had erectile dysfunction caused by a non-mental health issue, would we tell him that the problem wasn't a real problem if only he'd try the right thing, mentally?

Personally, this is (obviously) an upsetting issue. I'm 2 months PP and have low milk supply; as in, I produce about 5ml per 1hr pumping session, and I can get about 30ml on an entire day's worth of hours and hours of being hooked up to a pump inbetween breastfeeds.

My baby was delivered and within 48hrs lost so much weight he was admitted into NICU for monitoring. He was shrieking with hunger when he wasn't latched on, whcih was hours and hours of every day - i got about 3hrs of sleep in the first three days of his life, after which i was pretty much told he was in such a risky position we HAD to start supplementing with formula. My baby was literally starving.

• I'm on domperidone to increase milk supply (dr is talking about stopping it now as it has had no affect).
• I've spent every day of his life on a double hospital grade pump.
• Oatmeal breakfasts, flapjacks to inrease milk. I feel sick thinking about oats these days i'm so sick of them.
• I've taken fistfuls and handfuls of supplements every day: goat's rue to develop milk ducts, fenugreek, brewer's yeast, you name it, for 2 solid months.
• I've tackled slow let down by doing extreme skin to skin kangaroo style care the last few weeks; I listen to relaxing music whilst feeding and pumping, smelling my baby and looking at him/pictures of him.

His latch has been checked. No tongue tie.

• I've done about 4 feeding "resets" where I sat in bed and did nothing but skin to skin and feed for 3 days straight while my boyfriend and mum ran around doing everything else.
• i've had other stuff like bottle feed technique checked at my local LLL group, as well as the health visitor.
• GP has checked my thyroid and prolactin levels twice now - all normal.
• We've done a weighted feed at the local support group but i'm simply not producing anywhere near normal levels of breastmilk.

There's NOTHING i can do now to ever exclusively breastfeed as intended. i simply don't produce enough milk for some reason.

... and yet i keep reading on here especially that "low milk supply is rare" (no scientific source or attributation, of course!) and "supply=demand", just like all the other lies i was told at the antenatal group about breastfeeing.

can i ask you to consider the impact on women like me the next time you are writing something like that?

by washing over what is a genuinely distressing problem as if it weren't a real problem, it doesn't contribute towards good maternal mental health and suggests it can be fixed.

sometimes, it can't.

and now i'm trying to accept that it's ok. but then i read BF support threads on here with misleading / ambiguous phrases like that and i struggle.

@istill its so hard.... I get mad both ways! When people bash extended bf and when pro bf ers bash formula. I honestly dont know why women are so hard on each other. Be good to yourself. If you are running on empty, you ve nothing to give.

icedgem

I get that. We don’t want to tell women who could breastfeed that they can’t but equally, there is daylight between it being medically impossible to breastfeed, and the mother being actually able to breastfeed. The obstacles the mother faces may be such that she can’t make it work without intolerable sacrifices.

The difficulty is the more you tell women they could do it if only they tried x, y and z, the more awful those women feel when it turns out that in fact no they still can’t manage it.

It’s a fine balance.

Teresa.

(I'm another member of team PCOS - struggled and struggled with constantly having low milk yield. Could not pump at all. DS fed more or less continually, at least until he got too exhausted with hunger to even try, and went into free-fall below the bottom of the weight chart, i.e. below the 1 in 1000 line! As others have said, though, 11 years on and he is fine - healthy, fit, thriving, bright, happy and emotionally well adjusted.)

I totally get this, PP. Everything you describe, I had too. Boobs never got bigger. Colostrum was there with a syringe but milk never came in, no more than a teaspoon from each boob despite hours of trying, tried for 3 weeks both times.

Tried to explain to one person and got, ‘You’re just not doing it right’. People I hardly knew had no qualms asking me why I wasn’t breastfeeding. Including men. Eventually my response to the men was, ‘Well, let’s have a chat about your penis first then I’m happy to discuss my breastfeeding with you.’ Soon shut them up.

But... my first was a hugely traumatic birth and led to a massive infection and my second was twins. Every midwife and HV I came across basically just said a variation of, ‘Good God, woman, you have enough on your plate without worrying about breastfeeding.’ That gave me the confidence to understand that bottle feeding was right for me.

You’ve gone way beyond what most would try. All you need to do is feed your baby. You CAN bond with a bottle, just try to relax and shut out the judgemental twats. Thoughtless people are everywhere. Competitive parenting is everywhere. Shut them out and focus on your baby and you.

How much you can pump isn't always indicative of how much milk you produce. I could barely pump anything but didn't have a low supply.l and successfully fed my LG for 14 months. I'm not saying you don't have a low supply, you have obviously tried many things. And it sounds like you're doing a great job mamma ❤️

It took me hours of googling etc to come to the conclusion that between PCOS and IGT, I would never be able to fully BF my DC. Not for what or trying. I spent hours hooked up to a pump. Had alarm set for every 3 hours through the night. Pumped straight after a feed. Took domperidone. Ate our local Asda out of oats & oat milk. Even oat cookies made with oat milk.
Nothing. There was simply no way I could have fed my babies with breast milk alone.

It happens, more often than I believe statistics reflect.

Good post @StopCallingMeTeresa

There are a great deal of misconceptions about low milk supply though. The two most obvious ones that are mentioned by mother's who supposedly had low milk supply are that they can barely pump anything (has zero correlation to how much you actually produce, many women simply do not respond to a pump I never did). The most common cause of a baby never being satiated and failure to thrive is actually tongue tie. Most NHS professionals can not identify a posterior tongue tie. Not feeding adequately would cause low milk supply but not the other way around. It's not just tongue tie but minor palate issues or coordination difficulties that could cause poor transfer.

If I had a penny for every mother I've seen say they didn't produce any milk so had to bottle feed on day 1/2/3/4 is astounding. Milk usually doesn't come in before then and lots don't seem to know about colostrum.

Agree with Morris, none of this will matter in a year.

But breast milk is demand lead .

Do not feel guilty. My cousin had an issue with supply, despite the midwife telling her everything was fine. Her baby dropped dramatic amounts of weight, was admitted to hospital as an emergency and had a stroke. The midwife was struck off, the hospital has admitted liability and there's an ongoing court case.

Don't let anyone make you feel guilty, feed formula if you want. Breast is not always best for all babies.

It sounds like you are really punishing yourself in your quest to breastfeed. Genuine, friendly question, why is it so important to you to breastfeed that you will risk enjoying, bonding and chilling with your baby in these precious early days?
I couldn't produce enough milk either so always had to mix feed until I made the decision to exclusively formula feed. Best decision I've ever made, my baby is finally thriving. I found the 'breastapo' intimidating and unnecessary and are turning something as mundane as feeding a baby into a statement. Some BFeeders are also really judgy - like the PP who said that she's heard some mothers using low milk supply as 'an excuse' to formula feed. How dare you? Mothers don't need an excuse to feed their babies, thanks. Formula isn't poison.
Please don't risk your mental health or your baby's health by getting overwhelmed by this. Just get your lovely baby fed. As PP have said, this really won't matter in a year's time.

none of this will matter in a year.

Yet several people on here have said how much their experience with feeding have stayed with them for years.

I’m another one who gets nothing when I pump from one boob. DD is a very fast noisy feeder and I can hear it’s twice as the pump goes. I have one boob she slightly prefers, doesn’t pump a drop, and the other one she goes off sometimes for a day or two and plenty comes out when I express. No accounting for it. My DM bf 4 DC and only from one side as nothing came out of the other one at all and she didn’t bother to mention it to anyone. Everyone’s different, obviously, but it’s definitely not the case that pumping is a good reflection of what a baby can get. You can literally hear how different it sounds.

It's fine to say, oh you didn't get enough support, and pumping doesn't represent real milk production, but when I had a midwife checking every single feed in hospital and then daily at home after saying everything was fine, I didn't know why my baby wasn't getting enough milk. OK so it takes a few days for milk to come in, I was advised to offer formula topups as she was losing weight so quickly, but in order to wait for my milk to come in I had to pump every 2 hours, breastfeed which was incredibly painful, top up with formula then wash and sterilise everything, change the baby and sleep for 30 mins.

I was extremely sleep deprived after a slow, agonising back to back labour and instrumental delivery. I had very painful infected stitches. I wanted to breastfeed and did everything I had been told to do. But I couldn't face weeks of the pump-bf-topup-clean cycle every 2 hours. I went for formula full time on day 5. Incidentally my boobs never got hot and full. So I doubt my milk came in but I don't know.

But if I'd been prepared that I would have been more likely to have to go through this because of my pcos then I might have decided to go for it. Nobody mentioned supplements or oats or tongue tie to me. I did NHS breastfeeding classes as well as antenatal classes. It was all about the benefits, not actually how to do it or trouble shoot.

In the end I managed to enjoy my baby, heal after labour, maintained my sanity and my husband fed a calm baby for half of the night feeds whilst I slept, instead of watching her scream and me cry all night.

I tried to bf again with my second baby. He was on the boob 22 hours a day. Again no signs of milk coming in. He was exceptionally hungry and drank 12 bottles of hungry baby milk per 24 hours at one point.

I have accepted that I wasn't good at BF but I'm good at lots of other stuff. Both my DCs are doing extremely well at school, are healthy and happy. They eat really well, sleep really well. It doesn't matter that I fed them formula.

Gotmychocolate

Exactly the same happened to me, I'm over it now to be honest, baby is happy and healthy on formula. But still find it annoying when people pull the 1% stat out of their arse, as it's not as simple as that.

The PCOS factor is one I’d never heard before and very interesting. It’s shocking that women with the condition aren’t told it could be an issue with feeding when they’re pregnant, but typical perhaps on the lack of joined up thinking and shit support so many people suffer.

My milk didn’t come in till day 5 after taking all the drugs and having an EMCS but I was told that might happen within the first couple of hours so was prepared and while DDs weight dropped I was able to keep going and within a day of it coming in she was luckily gaining well. Pure luck. This has reminded me that I was expecting milk coming in to be dramatic which is all you ever hear. I didn’t leak till a few days later and only then by switching sides mid feed, no pain, no engorgement, no particular hormones or emotional feelings, it just went from thick yellow stuff to watery white stuff and she was able to take it in more easily.

I found there was a lot on info on what to expect but some of it’s far too “this is what WILL happen” and less of the range of possible things to expect.

I’m sorry you’re in the small % OP but I’m afraid I think YABU. It is a small percentage of women who have a medical issue with producing enough, and obviously this should never be discounted.
However lots of women who are able to produce enough simply don’t realise how much feeding you have to do in the early days to build a supply. It is important to normalise how much feeding is needed, and how it works to reassure people who don’t have medical issues.

@StopCallingMeTeresa blimey it seems you have had a really tough time it sounds like you have done amazing, similar happened to me and at the time I was devastated; I ran myself ragged and tried everything but my baby was dropping percentiles and I was bordering on breaking point. Formula has been absolutely great for us, DD has followed her weight line perfectly, is happy and healthy, and we still have an amazing bond. The low percentage stat doesn't take into account all factors and even if it did, people do fall into those numbers anyway. It took me a while, partly due to people's horrible and judgemental comments, but I feel at peace with it now. Please be kind to yourself

It was the same for me, 20 years ago. Don't sweat it, bottle feed AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, don't feel guilty. Your child will thrive and no, we will never recapture the moments we dreamed of in our naivete. And if it's any consolation, my DSis fed her second like a dream to 15 months. But both our unsuckled children are 6 feet tall and competent, regardless.

I know where you are coming from. My DS is 16 months old now and I still feel guilty about not being able to breastfeed him. But I do think women need more knowledge and support and I do think it should be offered to all mothers who want to breastfeed!

I read so much about breastfeeding and printed it all out for family to read and I felt like it was going to be this magical thing but the reality was it all just turned to shit.

I had gestational diabetes and had to be induced, had a 36 hour labour, lost loads of blood, I had an infection, DS was also being treated for a possible infection and he had a severe tongue tie.

In hospital he had to have his blood sugars monitered due to me having GD, all his levels were fine so I thought we were off to a good start! For the first 3 days we were in hospital he was feeding pretty constant which I knew was normal, I didn't doubt myself, midwives said even with tongue tie his latch seemed good, he was alert, he was weeing and pooing as expected.

We went home when he was 4 days old and within 24 hours I had supplemented with formula. This was down to relatives telling me he was starving because he wanted to be on my boob pretty much 20 hours a day. He had a weight check on day 5 and had lost 7oz from his birth weight which everyone then convinced me he needed formula and I had moved onto exclusive formula by the time he was 6 weeks old.

He had his tongue tie snipped at 10 days old and I tried again at breastfeeding, we had a breastfeeding lady come and see us and recommend a nipple shield which we used for a few feeds a day, she was really lovely and a big help and I think if she was with me for the first week of DS's life then we would of been successful! But the lack of demand from DS being 4 days old to 10 days old was awful for my supply

I also pumped milk, once I was trying to give BF a go again, i pumped around 4 times a day and would only get 1oz from both breasts each time I pumped and eventually by the time he reached 6 weeks I had given up

I completely take on board that some women have a low supply, and you should not feel guilty for FF. But a lot of women if they really wanted to like I did, could breastfeed, but they need the right support!

OP please don’t beat yourself up. I breastfed my son for 22 months but I really don’t understand other people’s obsession with how people feed their babies. It’s so unnecessary!

Interesting information about PCOS though, I have it and was never able to pump for than an ounce or 2, I also never leaked bar once when I’d missed a feed to take baby for injections. I remember saying to a midwife after I had my son I didn’t think I had any milk because I’d never leaked and she squeezed my nipple and got some out.

90 minutes on the hospital's turbo charged breast pump produced about 15ml, mostly blood. I was mega peeved, having had ginormous tits from age 15. Finding out they didn't work was not part of the plan.

I’m sorry you’re in the small % OP but I’m afraid I think YABU. It is a small percentage of women who have a medical issue with producing enough, and obviously this should never be discounted.
However lots of women who are able to produce enough simply don’t realise how much feeding you have to do in the early days to build a supply. It is important to normalise how much feeding is needed, and how it works to reassure people who don’t have medical issues.

Was going to write something very similar to this. The advice is general to apply to the majority, and not absolute - no one is saying supply issues don't exist.

OP you're - understandably - very sensitive about this, and I'm sorry despite all your efforts it's not worked out the way you wanted.

Similar struggle here- wrecked my bond with my baby. 14 years later i am kicking myself that I spent sooo long pumping and not just giving more bottles and enjoying my baby. People said i obviously didn't have enough support but i had great support, so many people checking my latch and techniques, giving lots of advice, i had visits at home, attended groups in the community and hospital and clinic. I felt so much guilt, was determined to crack it second time round and the same thing happened all over again- i thought i was so ready. Thank god hindsight has made me realise it doesnt really matter.

But whenever you post about having problems with supply the general consensus seems to be that it's not likely that you are one of the apparent 1% with 'genuine' low supply and if you'd only tried harder you could have BF. Why can't we just believe that women DO have problems with supply and let them get on with feeding their babies in whichever way works for them?

It's still an incredibly sore subject for me and my youngest is nearly 7.