Do we live in a "paedophile" culture? I think so.

[BlytheSpiritsSpirit]

I came across this old article on Feminist Current:

You’ve heard of rape culture, but have you heard of pedophile culture?

It's really made me stop and think; children are hyper-sexualised in our culture, aren't they? A recent issue my own DD brought up was the way Millie Bobby Brown from Stranger Things has been sexualised as she's grown (example here) and her co-star Finn Wolfhard (example here)

Why do people feel it's ok to sexualise children like this? What about the beauty pagents for 3 year olds, the drag queen competitions for pre-teens, or remember the internet countdown for when the Olsen twins turned 18? (that was a while ago, so clearly this isn't a new phenomenon)

The more I think about it, the more disturbed I get. I think we do live in a paedophile culture, or at least a culture where the hyper-sexualisation of children is completely normalised. AIBU?

Pride does seem to be more about fetishes now and the more extreme the fetish, the better and more demanding to be seen.

Paedophiles would love to be another letter in the rainbow pride l.

ColdTattyWaitingForSummer
I agree with you. In some respects we've come a long way, yet I can't help but feel there are some adults who dislike how far we've come regarding safeguarding, which is why they try to spend their time arguing that teenagers who are biologically mature are to all intents and purposes a sexually mature adult.

If the definition of adult for the purposes of sex gets reduced to a much lower age then those unsavoury types who seek sex with teenagers can pretend that it's a legitimately sexual preference (after all we are biologically programmed to reproduce so it's not their fault if they seem sex with a 15 year old girl).
Safeguarding has moved to coverexposing children to indecent and explicit material, but there are adults now who argue we should be affirming sexuality and normalising sexual content around children.
It's a worrying trend from a small subsection of adults.

Fucking hell, Fresta, do you think it should be lowered? Why would you even ask such a question?

Organised males have been pushing for a reduction in the age of consent for many many years. Are you one of them??

The age of majority varies over time and culture- it's a cultural definition not a biological one!

So what? That doesn't mean that a young age of majority was right! Children and teenagers are younger, less mature and in need of guidance and protection from adults. Not rape.

I don't think it useful to scream paedo at anyone questioning if 16 is the right age for consent.

Its 14 in a lot of places including Germany and Italy. You are calling the whole of two very large european countries paedophillic if someone can't even question that 16 is too high....

I personally think the dividing line is one of ability to consent. I think some 18 years olds don't have this due to lack of maturity, I think some 14 year olds do have this do their maturity. Putting an age on it is convenient but nonsensical when you consider how different people are in that age range from one another.

I don't think I was ready for sex until I was 17/18. Maybe not even then....

I do 100% think there should be less pressure on girls to look sexualized their whole lives though!

@Mummyoflittledragon

The average 16 yo girl really does not understand the full impact of wearing skimpy clothes. I remember doing the same when I was 16. Like hell was I doing it to attract some lecherous pedophile.

A paedophile isn't going to be attracted to a 16yo girl, let's be honest about that.

I don't think things have changed massively, in terms of sexualisation, since I was 14-16 (30 years ago) other than it's now far less common, or acceptable, for girls of that age to be in relationships with men 5 years older, which is a very good thing indeed.

When I was in the last couple of years of high school (when school finished at 16) the number of us who had boyfriends at least 3 years older, some more like 6/7 years older, is quite staggering to look back on.

It wasn't far off being the norm, if my memory is anything like correct.

Thank god things have changed. DD is 20 and she hasn't - to my knowledge - had a bf more than a year or so older, yet. That seems to be much more the norm amongst her peers, too.

I think in some countries the age of consent varies depending on the age gap involved. So 16/17 year olds can have sex with other 16/17 year olds but not with anyone 18+ (although I think there is a clause for those who were already in a relationship and the older person had a birthday). I also think there is better understanding around consent now. I remember we all thought that the age of consent only applied to full piv sex, so plenty of people thought they were fine doing everything but. It was only when ds1 did some safeguarding training that I learned it applied to any sexual contact.
Agree with the pp that even if some things have improved, society has a long way to go.

M3lon
I agree that it wouldn't help shouting paedophile at anyone interested in the discussion surrounding consent.

I do feel that if someone is repeatedly arguing about how the divide between adult and child is social norms and teenagers are sexual mature adults that it's a bit of a bizarre and questionable argument.

For example, I've gone back and forth on my feelings on the age of consent. I know some teens (mature enough and otherwise) will be sexually active, and I don't believe that 2 15 year olds sleeping with each other is a massive issue overall. But I would worry that any reduction in the age of consent begins to give a green light to adults who seek sex with teenage children to say "but they're sexually mature adults, biology says girls are most fertile in their teens, I can't help wanting to sleep with 15 year olds, they consented".

Add in the training I did on child sexual exploitation where it's now categorised as a thing that teens (often vulnerable teens who think they are more nature and worldly than they are) can be easily groomed for sex in the belief that they are in a relationship of equals.
I remain open minded on consent between teenagers. I can't see any reason why it should ever be accepted that an adult wants to sleep with a child and I think there are some unsavoury adults who seek to both normalise exposing children to sexual material by rebranding it "empowerment or liberation" and seek to redraw ages of consent based on hitting puberty because it suits their own perversions.

Acknowledging that ability to consent is more important than numerical age is actually a step toward protecting vulnerable people. I don't pretend to understand the drivers of rape or paedophillia, but I would imagine an insecure, immature 17 year old who you can groom, dominate and control is a more appealing target than a 15 year old who is intellectually and emotionally mature enough to consent to sex.

I've always assumed the lack of ability to consent was a part of the appeal, but I could be wrong.

In America

The federal law establishes the age of 12 as the minimum age of consent, while the age at which there are no restrictions for consensual sexual activities is 18 (sex with someone 12-18 is not illegal per se, but can still be open to prosecution under certain circumstances).

lola absolutely. That's why I think we need to move on from numerical age as a measure all together. You can't raise the age high enough to protect everyone, so having an age at all is putting a lot of vulnerable teenagers at risk by giving the green light.

The emphasis needs to shift from a tick box age check before people feel its fair game to groom someone, and onto making sure the person is capable of consent regardless of age.

Supersarah
I’m using pedophile in the sense of a minor attracted person. You are correct in the fact this is more the territory of a hebephile or an ephibophile.

My grandmothers boyfriend grabbed and incapacitated me when I was 16. He was over 80 at the time. The way he incapacitated me is clear to me now that this was not the first time he’d attacked a child for I was very much a child. As an adult, I can see he was an opportunist, who orchestrated a situation once we were alone in my grandmas house, where he knew I would be weak and vulnerable by showing me sympathy over a very distressing incident in my life and getting me to cry. That vile creature then attempted to interfere with me. He only let go because I went ballistic. As I was screaming at him to get the fuck off and away from me, he repeated several times it is “our little secret”.

Please tell me in what way that thing was not a pedophile.

Age of consent worldwide. Interesting to see in some countries you have to be married.

worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-age-of-consent/

That's why I think we need to move on from numerical age as a measure all together.....so having an age at all is putting a lot of vulnerable teenagers at risk by giving the green light

I don't understand what you're saying. This maturity over age argument is exactly what Paedophile's use to justify abusing children because they say the 10, 15, or 5 year old was mature. You need an age limit the same as driving or becoming a policeman to set boundaries that everyone will understand.

I think OP's post was clearly addressing grown adults with children and not children with children. Where's the confusion?

I've always assumed the lack of ability to consent was a part of the appeal, but I could be wrong.
You're probably right. But part of grooming is the manipulation element. The child believes this is a relationship of equals to begin with. The adult has wormed their way into the child's trust.
The adult knows what they are doing and knows they are manipulating a teen to do what they want. They know there's no meaningful consent, but they rely on the child defending them because in the victim's mind they did agree (they said yes, they went along with it, they didn't say no, they didn't protest).
It's very cunning and evil.

A man wouldn't be considered a pedophile for having sexual activity with a 16 year old. Pedophilia relates to prepubescent children.

Fresto
So what were the men in the Rotherham gangs? To me they are paedophiles. They raped and sexually exploited girls ranging from 11-16.

I've read some disheartening posts defending a man who has been barred from working with children by this professional sports association, due to historic abuse of boys as young as 12. The thinking of the people defending him seem to be based on the fact that he hasn't been convicted of a criminal offence (yet). Oh, and the fact that he is famous and notoriously straight talking -verbally- -abusive- .

And apparently, things were more lax in the past. Well, I'm pretty certain that even 50 years ago, it wasn't acceptable to touch up children you contacted through being a sport coach!

Its so dispiriting how easily some people are taken in.

Mummyoflittledragon
It's sexual abuse of children but not paedophilia.
Fresta is technically correct, but combine how happy they seem to say "but technically they weren't paedophiles" combined with their bizarre interests in counting teenagers as sexually mature adults etc and I think we can probably see that there are some people who are a little too keen to make teenagers available to adults.

Lolasmiles
I get not in the strict sense of the term. I spoke of my experience upthread and what the elderly man said to me at 16 when trying to sexually abuse me (our little secret). The lay person doesn’t normally differentiate between hebephilia, ephibophilia and paedophilia.

The worrying thing is that I advance searched Fresta to see if this person is legit. They claim to be a ta but previously a teacher. 😳

To add to my last comment, the op is also referring to paedophilia in these terms.

Mummyoflittledragon
I see your point. As far as the average person goes anyone who wants sexual contact with a child is a child abuser and paedophile is often used as a catch all term.

I know people can claim to be anything online but the idea of anyone with the views Fresta has working in a school really worries me, especially if they work in a secondary school where we have to deal with issues of teen sexual activity and sexuality on a regular basis.

We have a duty of care to the children we a privileged to work with. The idea someone may not see a safeguarding situation that is classic CSE because the child is 15/16 and so a sexually mature adult (as they put it) is awful.

LolaSmiles
Thank you for your response. I have learnt such a lot on mumsnet about children and teens and it is very worrying someone claiming to be a teacher cannot see a school child as anything other than an adult. I love the way you speak about being privileged to work with children. It’s heartwarming. I imagine any work with children must be incredibly challenging.

Mummyoflittledragon
You're right it is worrying.

Working with children has its challenges but it is a privilege and, not to sound like a twat,comes with a sense of responsibility not just for their academic progress but their wider development.
Topics like this can get me on my high horse, sorry.When I hear adults taking such a lax view or see (thanks to FWR on MN) issues in some children's charities, it's hard not to worry that there is an agenda somewhere to make teenagers much more vulnerable (presented as empowerment but probably more comparable to CSE).I don't want to be sat with a tin foil hat on, but I think the more adults can talk openly and challenge some of these weird ideas that no sensible adult would hold,the more we can all keep kids safe.

OFFS! Mummy- Can you not understand that sexual maturity is a biological process, and even according the NHS website sexual maturity is reached at approximately four years after puberty starts- so a 16 year old girl is sexually mature- fact! They are not a fully fledged adult, but they are old enough to be sexually aware. Of course they are still vulnerable to exploitation and most will still need guidance and support and protection.

At no point did I suggest that the age of consent should be lowered, at no point did I say that they were an adult in all respects. At no point did I say it was Ok for teenage girls to be fair game. My posts were intended to counteract those claiming 16 and 17 year olds have no sexual awareness.

It's far better to accept that girls will have desires and sexual urges and how to manage these and develop normal sexual relationships, and learn how to protect themselves from those that might want to exploit them and abuse them. Safegaurding is about protecting children from abuse- but it needs to accepted that they are also capable at this age of having a healthy sexual relationship- even the law accepts this. It's just naive to believe a 16 year old has no sexual feelings, awareness or understanding. A 16 year old is actually capable of being the abuser.