Inappropriate behaviour?

[AnnonniMoose]

I'm not sure if I'm over reacting to this situation, so thought I'd ask for opinions .

My DDs (10) are going to a holiday club. On Wednesday one of the boys (9), kept smacking DD2 on the bum, holding a stick in front of his crotch and telling the girls how big his willy is. DD2 eventually punched and kicked him (she was told off for this).

Now I know boys will be boys, and I could look past the bragging about his willy thing (although it is quite odd), but in conjunction with him smacking DDs bum, I thought this was inappropriate.

When I dropped DDs off this morning I mentioned it to the 'leader', and he said he knew there had been a bit of a disagreement, but not the extent of it.

So I guess what I'm wondering is - considering their ages, was he just a boy messing around, and WIBU making a thing of it, or was I right to be concerned about this. The leader said he would raise it as a safeguarding concern - I'm just unsure if I'm making a big thing out of nothing. WIBU?

and to always confide in an adult, who will always support her

But will they? Or will they laugh it off, tell her that it was a joke or just what boys do or that she was asking for it? I can't believe the number of posts tacitly excusing the boy here.

I worked briefly with NOTA, a charity for the rehabilitation of sexual offenders. Professionals within these environs were of the opinion that the earlier concerning behaviour was flagged (in childhood, preferably) the better the chances of reversing that behaviour. By adulthood, however many of the right noises you make and boxes you tick, it's generally too late.

They had a flag warning system to identify sexually-inappropriate behaviour and I agree with you that two fairly major red flags: unwanted physical contact with the bum-smacking AND the genital thing, is a real cause for concern. If this were my son, I'd be extremely worried and I'd want to seek him the appropriate help. It is NOT OK to bring children up to accept actions like these.

You've flagged this up as a safeguarding issue, and I'm afraid that's all I can do. But in your situation I'd be doing two things:

1. Keeping my DCs well away from this boy and

1. Rewarding and celebrating the actions of your DD, far from endorsing her 'telling-off' by the club. I'd be saying 'attagirl, DD2. You never have have to accept such behaviour and it doesn't matter about adult tellings-off or trying to suggest it's you in the wrong. And if it happens again you have my full, free permission to respond in exactly the same way!

Boils my blood that girls are conditioned to accept this shit from males at ANY age, or that the situation should be rugswept when the right intervention could potentially save this kid from growing up into a sex offender.

YADNBU.

I wouldn't have told her off. She defended herself. Good on her. He has no right to touch her.

Totally agree yetabitgerspartacus wayyyy too many posts on here downplaying this behaviour.

It's shockingly disgusting.

@Yetanotherspartacus. I agree that there are far too many posts on here downplaying his behaviour. I said "an appropriate adult" for a reason: anyone working with children will have had safeguarding training and will therefore know to listen and record the facts and pass these on to the designated safeguarding lead. If they fob DD off they are failing in their duty of care and should not be in their role.

I can't believe the number of posts tacitly excusing the boy here.

I can, it's standard. In RL and on MN.

Boys will be boys is a ridiculous, excusatory line for shitty behaviour that is accepted from boys but not girls.

I've got 2 boys, neither of them think public jokes about their willy is acceptable, nor do they think randomly hitting other children on the bum is acceptable.

It all comes down to what they grow up thinking is acceptable doesn't it?

Clearly this boy has seen inappropriate behaviour somewhere in his life and is mimicking it. What's really sad is that adults are so prepared to ignore/excuse that kind of behaviour.

Why hasn't anyone spoken to him to say his actions are intimidating and not very nice?
Why has nobody explained to him that his willy is private and shouldn't be discussed in public? Or that slapping little girls on the bum isn't on because you can't touch people without their consent?

Because it's easier, that's why. Lazy and easy.

And we wonder why some boys reach adulthood with no respect for girls or women? Ffs.

Aye, wee boys make willy jokes (I am surprised the boasting about the size at 9 happened!!! Very adult thing to say!) but that's where their parents step in and explain what is and isn't appropriate.

Not to just say "oh boys will be boys" and laugh it off.

I also have a DD and 2 DSDs. DSD1 is gay, and since the age of about 13 has had to endure "jokes" from boys her age about a good shagging "curing" her, and lewd comments about how a cock would change her mind.

It's sexual aggression, because nobody's ever told them they can't. Because they feel some kind of entitlement to say/do these things.

They fucking well know now, and so do their soft as shit, enabling parents!

Nobody's doing these boys any favours by blindly excusing it. Any behaviour we get from children that wouldn't be acceptable as adults is explained and hopefully they're shown/told the right way to behave.

Why doesn't that apply here? OPs DD is being told that punching and kicking someone who touched you without consent is wrong. (I'd actually argue that's the perfect response to sexually aggressive behaviour and in fact one of the only times reacting with violence IS acceptable!)

He's not being told anything?

Nobody's suggesting carting him off in handcuffs and throwing away the key, but he needs to know, clearly and unequivocally that his behaviour is frightening, intimidating and wrong and why. Otherwise it won't stop will it? He finds it funny, and unless he's given a reason to stop it, he won't?

I wonder how many would be so quick to defend a 14 yo, or 18 yo behaving in the same way. Not many I suspect.

So tell me, at what age do our DDs get to say when they don't want to be touched? Because many are saying 9 isn't old enough, by excusing him.

When then?

My 8 year old ds does things like this (higher functioning asd but hes picked it up from school) and gets told off and strong consequences. Boys have no right to touch any girl when she does not want.to be touched.

"Boys will be boys"

Please don't be wilfully complicit in bad male behaviour OP, this is how and where it starts.

Waveysnail DS1 came home from his first week at secondary (ASN school, he's autistic and has much younger emotional level than his NT peers) with some fairly horrendous views he'd heard at school about girls. His primary didn't have girls.

Like you we got on top of it, quickly, explaining what was so awful about those attitudes and why they were so demeaning to women and girls.

He's never repeated them, either at home or school. (We asked his HoY to keep an eye on the group of boys as a whole for that reason).

It's the excusing of it I can't bear, because it's phrased in a "right on" way, especially on here, but all its doing is teaching boys they have the right to do as they please to a girl, and teaching girls they have to accept it because boys will be boys.

You didn't excuse it, that's the difference.

Now I know boys will be boys

I haven't read the full thread, but this is a shit excuse and unacceptable. I didn't and dont joke about my private parts, its not acceptable for a boy/man to do it.

NCBabyBoy - I wasn't being critical of your post (sorry if I gave that impression). I guess I was just being skeptical that adults would see the issue.

Lisbon - amazing post! However, "Any behaviour we get from children that wouldn't be acceptable as adults is explained" - but I think that behaviour such as this from adult males is often explained away and condoned. 'He was just joking', 'he was drunk', 'it was his stag's night', 'she led him on', 'you are being a prude' are all phrases used to excuse adult men's predatory treatment of women.

i think the stick thing is normal.the amount of boys that age you hear doing that around schools(though mostly with other boys)
but the smacking on the bum thing that not to do with immature boys poo bumm wee willy.that is a seen or learnt beahviour from somewhere.the two together seem uncomfortable.

I think that behaviour such as this from adult males is often explained away and condoned. 'He was just joking', 'he was drunk', 'it was his stag's night', 'she led him on', 'you are being a prude' are all phrases used to excuse adult men's predatory treatment of women.

Completely agree, hence my determination to explain to all of my kids, from a young age what is and isn't ok, and also what they don't have to accept from other people (both adults and children).

I know fine, sadly, how women are always somehow blamed for male aggressive behaviour. "She was too......" friendly, flirty, trusting, naive and any other excuse you can think of is often seen in articles about severe assaults and murders by a male.

I do wonder if we, as a society, weren't so keen to excuse aggressive and sexually intimidating behaviour from youngsters, and instead explained why it wasn't right and showed them the right way to behave, if so many adult males would behave so appallingly.

I can, it's standard. In RL and on MN.
Boys will be boys is a ridiculous, excusatory line for shitty behaviour that is accepted from boys but not girls.
It is!
Go into town and you'll see boys play fighting in shops, charging around as their (usually) mums look on lovingly at their 'little tyke'. Obviously they should behave how they like because they're a boy.

Then it gets to toddler groups and nursery and the same sort of loud, charging around, play violence, actual violence happens and the parents say 'aww boys will be boys won't they'.

Then in primary school their boy doesn't pay attention, shouts out, dominates group work, mocks weapons and gets in girls faces and the parents say 'he's just so energetic and opinionated, you're going to be a little leader aren't you?'

In secondary the behaviour develops and in ks3 he takes the piss out of girls, still thinks the world should stop and listen because he is a boy, winds girls up, ignores them making it quite clear they think he is irritating. When staff intervene because they've had complaints from girls, the parents say 'he probably just fancies them, boys will be boys'.

At KS4, when it comes to dating and many boys have already seen hard-core porn and he's talking about the girls in the year group in a disgustingly sexualised way, staff get involved and he says 'chill out it was just a laugh.. it's not like I was actually expecting her to suck me off'. He learns more and more about lad culture and his parents think it's fine because 'it's just a joke, lads will be lads yeah'.

We have a duty to teach boys that there's a way to be a boy and a man that is polite, non-aggressive and respectful of others. The 30 year old misogynist don't appear overnight. They are socialised into believing that's acceptable behaviour, because they're men innit and women should chill out and know how to take a compliment.

I am proud of her for defending herself, but she does have to learn that she can't go around punching people

I suspect that as a budding martial artist, she already knows that OP - i will be an engrained part of her training. She also has NOT "go[ne] around punching people". She was physically assaulted - twice - & took the necessary action to stop that assault.

If she were an adult woman, capable of punching some slimeball who groped or slapped her, would you feel she needed telling off?

It's so good that you smiled while you were ticking her off but I wonder how much of the 'ticking' was just bending to societal pressure? Whose benefit was it for?
If somebody invades somebody else's body space & touches them without consent, it is 100% appropriate to use physical force to make them stop. I wouldn't want your girl receiving any mixed messages about that. I'd take her home & tell her how proud of her I am, while also reminding her that it's ONLY ok to strike in defence.

LOLA!!! So well written!!!! You win teh interwebs (jointly with Lisbon) today!

The 30 year old misogynist don't appear overnight. They are socialised into believing that's acceptable behaviour, because they're men innit and women should chill out and know how to take a compliment.

This! All of what you said is right, but this but really jumped off the page.

At work, one of the 20 something men is known for sending dick pics and sexual messages via intranet to young, attractive, female new starts. It's known and fuck all is done.

He did it to one young woman, just turned 18, and she was in absolute bits. He mocked her and made her feel like she was overreacting. I flipped my shit with him in the staffroom, he said I should be grateful he tried it with me as I'm old and ugly (like that's going to bother me coming from a rotten wee pervert). Still no disciplinary.

The lassie left, because she was intimidated by him and the lack of action or support from management.

So this shit happens, on a daily basis. Speaking to younger women at work (late teens, early 20s) they're depressingly accepting of such behaviour because it's become so normal. It was the older (30s +) men and women who were horrified by it.

I do not want my children (boys or girls) to have to live in a society where this shit is normal.

Yes, sexual jokes from a 10 year old boy is just SO FUCKING HILARIOUS.

I am, of course, joking. It's not hilarious. It's fucking inappropriate. If it's not acceptable from an adult male to a female of any age, why the fuck is it ok for a 10 year old to do it?

Totally unacceptable behaviour from the boy. If my 9 year old boy did this I would be shocked and come down very hard on it, this isn’t something to just be laughed off or “boys will be boys” it’s horrible behaviour. Touching her moreso, but the stick willy thing I don’t think is acceptable either.

It's known and fuck all is done.

Jeez, @InTheHeatofLisbon.
I would have to take unilateral action on his arse if he did it to me or mine ...

& good on ya Lisbon for tackling the dick-sending dick.
Still no disciplinary is ... gobsmacking.
This shite is so utterly ingrained, & look how you get attacked for merely pointing out how inappropriate & bullying it is.

I would have to take unilateral action on his arse if he did it to me or mine ...

Union weren't interested, sadly and unfortunately being arrested or even involved with the police for anything would lead to my professional registration body striking me off immediately.

I'm currently working my notice period, having informed senior management (regional, not my actual workplace) of why.

Once I've started my new place, I fully plan to take it further. I just can't risk my income or my kids suffer unfortunately.

Lack of action by (female, all of them) management has enraged me.

Incidentally I am not, in any way an aggressive woman but I really, really wanted to fucking deck him. If I didn't need my job I probably would have if I'm honest.

Union weren't interested, sadly

But not surprisingly in my experience.

But not surprisingly in my experience

I've heard similar from other women.

It's a good example of why early intervention for behaviours like these are important. It's not too late to help a child understand why their behaviour is wrong.

It's way too late when they're an adult.

Also, doing nothing when they're children conditions girls that they should accept this behaviour without question.

Is that really something people are happy with?