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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Employee taking the proverbial...and leaving us up the creek!

97 replies

Tedp · 31/07/2019 21:54

Sorry folks, it's a work related one.

So, little bit of background. We run a small, independent family business, employing 10 people (including ourselves) across 2 sites.Everybody earns the same, has the same entitlement to annual leave etc. There's no hierarchy, other than obviously us as owners (although we too take the same wage, do the same job etc.)

Anyway, we have a general rule/policy that no more than 2 members of staff can be on annual leave at any time, due to the lack over cover as we're such a small business. This generally works out well, and on the odd occasion that we've had to decline a leave request for this reason, it's been accepted with good grace. If something was to come up as an emergency, we'd do all we could to be flexible of course, as it's far better for us to have a happy team than not.

One member of staff mentioned a while ago that they wanted some time off for a family wedding, but didn't give any dates - we asked them to let us know the dates ASAP so we could get them in the diary. Over 2 months passed before we were given the dates (4 working days) and unfortunately during that time 2 other members of staff had booked 2 of the days off, so we had to explain that we could honour the midweek dates but the weekend wasn't available. So far as we were aware, this was accepted.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago, and on their last day before the agreed period of leave, employee asks "You have sorted cover for next week, haven't you? I'll be back a week on Tuesday."

Erm, no, we hadn't of course. We'd sorted cover for the agreed weekdays, but explained yet again that unfortunately the Saturday we couldn't cover so he would be required to work. As the Sunday was also his normal working day, and he hadn't asked for this, we'd had no prior notice to either approve or decline this, nor to look at arranging cover.

We left it that he was expected back in work on the Saturday, and wished him a good holiday. Of course, when the Saturday came around, he didn't turn up - leaving us well and truly in the brown sticky stuff. Nor did he come in on the Sunday. He wasn't contactable, we tried.

On the Monday (not a day he is scheduled to work) he contacted us by text message asking "Is everything ok?", and we responded to the effect that he had left us in an incredibly difficult position, costing us lots of money and damage to our reputation as we'd been able to fulfil our obligations over the weekend due to him not turning up. He was warned that if he did that again, he would be dismissed, however we're reasonable people (probably too reasonable) so we were prepared to give him a chance, and would say no more about it.

He well and truly threw his toys out of the pram at being warned, and told us he would not be returning to work after we had "threatened" him. This left us in an ever worse position, as he was due to work on the Tuesday and again we had commitments we had to cancel due to him quitting.

We've managed to find somebody else to fill the role now, although will have to invest in training them, and it will have an impact on the business for a while as we get them up to speed.

The (former) employee has now contacted us again today, basically asking for his job back, although no sign of any apology, just "I had things on my mind". Well don't we all! Some of us now have the added worry of repairing our damaged business, and making sure we can still pay the rest of the staff this week.

Are we being unreasonable in any way? I certainly don't think so, but he clearly does.

OP posts:
Andysbestadventure · 01/08/2019 15:52

Also OP has he worked with you for longer than 2yrs? If not then he doesn't have aleg to stand on anyway.

clottedcreamoverjam · 01/08/2019 16:01

Mmmhh 🤔
Actually... I don't think you can put all that on this member of staff. Reputation, not fulfilling your duties...
So if you have 2 people on leave and someone falls ill your business can't go on?
I have worked for a place like that and left promptly. It is not good business sense.

So maybe this person wasn't great at what they did but if you are running a business like this I am afraid it is on you.

ithinkiammelting · 01/08/2019 16:24

Let's say (and of course we don't know) that the OP runs a hairdressing business from two shops. Ten staff altogether and two already on authorised holiday so four staff in each shop. Saturday mornings are rather busy in a hairdressers, so of course one member of staff leaving them in the lurch is going to cause major issues.

A florists would have the same problem, or a dance school with a teacher short, a MoT garage without a mechanic, a restaurant with a missing chef - or any number of other places. There's a lot of people on this thread who don't understand how small businesses work, and think its the OP's fault for the way they run their business.

dustarr73 · 01/08/2019 16:27

@ithinkiammelting He was going to a wedding and needed 4 days off.What do you or the owner think was going to happen.He would come back for his shifts and go back to the wedding.

Really.

floribunda18 · 01/08/2019 16:45

^BUT what happens if you have two people on annual leave and someone calls in sick, or half the team get norovirus?

You need to plan better for emergency situations so your business isn’t damaged in the first place^

Quite, you seem to be spreading yourselves very thinly. Also agree that he was hardly likely to turn up on the Saturday.

Anniegetyourgun · 01/08/2019 16:46

Or it could be something like a training event, booked in advance and affecting a number of somebody else's staff if it has to be suddenly pulled. If you haven't got a spare bod to run it you haven't got one. It may not be the case that anyone else could just stand in for him as no doubt they can't afford to employ more people with that particular skill than the number of bookings would justify. And although there may be plenty of freelance trainers (or whatever) in the market, sourcing one and getting your specific material to them in time to prepare isn't going to work at two days' notice. Going forward, you could probably have a stand-by arrangement with one or two reliable freelancers in case of emergencies. It wouldn't be cheap though.

Blobby10 · 01/08/2019 17:01

@Tedp it would be worth getting some proper Employment Law advice for this. I too run a small business and the hoops we have to jump through to cover our backs in the event of a claim are ridiculous.

You could find that you need to confirm in writing his resignation, then give him the opportunity to reconsider then write again rejecting his reconsideration etc etc etc. Yes it should be simple - he resigned, you took on someone else, he asks for his job back, you say no - but unfortunately the odds are stacked against the employer if they haven't done everything exactly right and you could leave yourself vulnerable to all sorts of claims by him which, whilst probably not upheld in the end, will take loads of time and effort from you to sort out.

TSSDNCOP · 01/08/2019 17:08

Confirm his resignation in writing, dated the day he gave it, the fact it was verbal and staring his last day and the date he will be paid to. Send P45.

You do need better contingency planning though. An employee or more could be off sick when you’ve got 2 on agreed leave.

ForalltheSaints · 01/08/2019 17:13

I think you should have fired him straight away. Do not take him back, and indeed in the long term your sacking him will make him face up to his behaviour and not do it to someone else.

Thinking of how to contingency plan is a separate exercise, and good practice.

mumto3boysHE · 01/08/2019 17:49

Welcome to my world OP

I'm the poster from a couple of weeks ago who had a member of staff ask for 2 weeks unpaid leave with only 7 days notice, as she'd had all her entitlement for the year. I turned her down because someone else was already off. She was ok about it, but then resigned a week later, with no notice, as she'd be offered another job.

So not quite the same situation as you but, as a small business, managing staff and holidays etc, can cause a real problem.

I thought, as she'd resigned and not worked her notice, I could deduct the weeks notice from her final pay. Turns out you can't, as you have to pay staff for the hours worked. You can only deduct the notice if it's written into their contract (mine just states the notice period - I'm considering changing it for future staff).

We ran the risk of letting people down as we had work booked for the Monday (she rang me on the Saturday to resign) but luckily I managed to find someone to temp.

Staff can be your greatest asset, or your biggest liability.

Check your laws to make sure you are allowed to 'let this person go' seeing as they resigned. If not, again check your laws, and sack for gross misconduct!

You have a business and your other employees to protect!

Good luck.

Hoppinggreen · 01/08/2019 17:58

It would be good for you to get proper legal advice because behaving like an arsehole doesn’t necessarily mean you can sack someone (I know he resigned but you need to cover your arse)
Are you a member of the FSB or anything as they can offer free legal advice
Even if he’s in the wrong you can get into trouble for not follow procedure

HeadintheiClouds · 01/08/2019 18:00

What does “I know he resigned but you have to cover your arse” mean? What procedure should op have followed other than accept his resignation?!

Hoppinggreen · 01/08/2019 18:06

If his resignation was only verbal it might be more tricky
I completely agree this person should be sacked, it’s just that HR is a complicated area and OP needs expert advice on employment law rather than people just agreeing she hasn’t acted unreasonably. It would be a shame if this chancer ends up with a claim due to procedures not being followed properly
Of course if he hasnt been there 2 years it’s easier

WhoTellsYourStory · 01/08/2019 18:11

Agree with others - get legal advice. You also need better arrangements for cover if any unexpected absence causes you to lose so much money. I accept that small businesses have different needs and pressures but you’re running it too fine.

OllyBJolly · 01/08/2019 18:20

There's a lot of people on this thread who don't understand how small businesses work, and think its the OP's fault for the way they run their business

This! Most organisations run on tight resources and unauthorised absence can put a lot of pressure on everyone else. Smaller business doesn't have reserves to draw on - and the customers won't pay extra so the owner can keep some subs on a bench.

MrsElijahMikaelson1 · 01/08/2019 18:56

Hope you didn’t take him back OP-cheeky fucker indeed

BoomBoomsCousin · 01/08/2019 19:01

What does “I know he resigned but you have to cover your arse” mean?

It means check with professionals, not just a bunch of people on mumsnet, that the employee won’t have a way to claim that the resignation wasn’t proper or couldn't have been counted or that he actually felt he had been told he couldn’t come in to work anymore and was, therefore, improperly let go. Because employers have done all those sorts of things in the past so there are laws about how you have to handle staff leaving. If you don’t handle them properly you may end up defending a claim off him for money. So people are just saying check that it’s all been done properly so the OP won’t end up with a legal bill or compensation on top of the hassle of having to cover his absence and find new staff at short notice.

CruellaFeinberg · 01/08/2019 19:02

On the Monday (not a day he is scheduled to work) he contacted us by text message asking "Is everything ok?", and we responded to the effect that he had left us in an incredibly difficult position, costing us lots of money and damage to our reputation as we'd been able to fulfil our obligations over the weekend due to him not turning up. He was warned that if he did that again, he would be dismissed, however we're reasonable people (probably too reasonable) so we were prepared to give him a chance, and would say no more about it.

He well and truly threw his toys out of the pram at being warned, and told us he would not be returning to work after we had "threatened" him.

You could find that you need to confirm in writing his resignation, then give him the opportunity to reconsider then write again rejecting his reconsideration etc etc etc.

Really? Why would you have to give opportunity to reconsider?

Did he resign by text?

I think the only thing you need to worry about is he stated he felt threatened?
(Not lawyer)

Orangecake123 · 01/08/2019 19:39

I wouldn't be able to take him back.

Sunshine1239 · 01/08/2019 19:54

Surely resignation doesn’t come into it?

If you fail to turn up to work it’s gross misconduct end of. I’d be sacked as would most I would have though

MoreSlidingDoors · 01/08/2019 20:39

He resigned. It doesn't matter whether it was in the form of a letter, email, verbally.

It absolutely does if you are trying to prove it at Tribunal.

itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted · 01/08/2019 20:46

On the face of it your policy is fair to all employees BUT in a situation where more than 2 employees have requested the same leave then there should be a hierarchy of reasons to grant the leave so that certain times of leave have higher priority?

(The being said you gave him chance to get the leave request in and he didn't!)

My DH former employer insisted ALL leave for the year ahead be booked in a 2 week period in the December - first come first served - our wedding had been booked for nearly a year but two colleagues requested same the Saturday as leave simultaneously with DH - literally minutes between everyone handing in their requests forms. Because it was first come first served DH wedding day was DECLINED - obviously I went bat shit crazy and stormed down there - eventually he was begrudgingly given the day off! 🤣

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