To think having £211/week each after housing costs isn't poverty?

[PianoThirty]

It is according to the Social Metrics Commission.

They say the poverty line is £203/week for a single parent with one child, £422/week for a couple with two children. All figures are after** housing costs and childcare costs (if applicable).

I'd be over the moon if we had £422/week to spend, and I don't think we're anywhere near poor.

There is no point trying to make other people understand what struggling or making do is, or why it is not the way to live. Or why any comfort should be a luxury. It is really sad.

They will always believe that you are only in poverty once you have already hit the lowest low, and that it can’t possibly be a long winding path down into poverty over a period of time through those struggles, being 1 paycheck away from eviction at all times, a series of bad events in your life you can’t seem to get back on your feet from or unexpected bad health.

Well how much do YOU spend per week on YOUR bills op?

I live quite frugally, not least because I'm currently unable to work due to ill health so on benefits and housebound.

My costs for those things comes to

Council tax 4

Gas/electric 30 (in winter months I'm on a bloody meter! And by winter months as I'm in Scotland that's pretty much most of the year! Last year was very unusual in that the heating was off for more than 2 months in one go)

Water (I'm in Scotland where it's still publicly owned so paid for in council tax)

Groceries 60 (used to be 40-50 but rising prices plus trying to stick up a little for brexit, plus includes not only food but cleaning products, toiletries and certain household items eg batteries, light bulbs)

Transport (as I say currently housebound so 0 but when I'm not I'm pretty much stuck with using taxis for health reasons unless I'm having an unusually good day physically AND mentally which is rare so can be 30 per week depending what I'm doing)

Clothes and shoes (again as housebound not spending on this kinda thing currently, when I am usually around 20/30 a month so less than 10 a week)

Haircuts (again not at mo usually 10/15 a time so 2.50 max)

Medicines etc (dd and I both disabled and on regular meds which can cause nonsense like heartburn or headaches, plus dd often needs tubigrips, bandages etc, plus I try to keep our healthcare approach as natural as possible so use things like essential oils) 5

Web/landline 5.50

Tv licence 4

Phone 2.50 (sim only know was more when still on contract, my phone is a lifeline)

School equipment, books and toys (dd past this stage of me buying this kind of thing but when I was probably at least 5 a week)

Insurances 6.50

That comes to £160 right there! That's pretty much just for me! And I don't live in an expensive part of the U.K. Either.

"Another thread demonising poor people. Well done." Yep!!

Greysparkles -did you include the stuff you don't buy/pay for often? Eg school uniform, haircuts, clothes and shoes, medical, birthdays and Christmas? I didn't even include birthdays and Christmas!

"Poverty is having no home, hear or food." That may be YOUR definition of poverty but there are different kinds of poverty. What you are describing is absolute poverty.

"We have a generous welfare state in the UK to provide people basics and then some." Think I can guess who you are despite an apparent name change. You ever actually BEEN on benefits?!

"I think in the UK we’ve accepted that it is normal to struggle, and normal to see other people struggle.

Our perceptions of what it is ok to accept as a society, and what it is ok to expect other people to accept are utterly skewed." Totally agree

"Having enough to just about scrape by with basic food, no savings and no real quality of life has become acceptable in the U.K. thanks to the bloody Tories." And yet thread after thread on here full of posters who won't vote for Labour because they believe "tories better for economy" "Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser", that ONLY the Labour Party has issues with anti semitism and other forms of bigotry (despite tories having a blatantly racist pm), that the Labour Party are anti women (despite tories ALSO supporting twaw nonsense, legislating against women in MANY ways, not least the rape clause and joint uc claims trapping women in dv, supporting mps who have documented incidents of sometimes public violence against women and/or court cases alleging violence against women pending) and despite labour being the only party with a real chance of ousting the tories!

"then you’re not supposed to build a wall to keep the less fortunate out. You’re supposed to build a bigger table, pull up some extra chairs and share what you don’t need." Hear hear!

"he needs to address domestic violence and provide more state help to single parent families. And no, I don't mean those who have 7 children with 6 dads. I mean people like me who have been fucked over by the patriarchy." But you're STILL falling for divide and conquer, how do you know that the mother with 7 children by 6 dads wasn't ALSO fucked over by the patriarchy? I can we'll see that such a woman may well be a survivor of abuse possibly starting in childhood, ideally THAT would be addressed and sorted so that she made what could be argued to be better decisions for herself in not having as many children BUT the irony of you being so judgmental towards another (albeit fictional) woman RATHER than criticise a society which has led her to think that motherhood is her only purpose in life OR the men that fathered those children and THEIR responsibility for that while slating "the patriarchy" is somewhat ironic.

@scorpiovenus "but I also believe in working for my money and not hand outs so I cant really comment" little drive by dig at benefits recipients there! Even IF I accept your no doubt forthcoming disclaimer of "oh I don't mean the truly deserving very sick/disabled" do you understand how/why it can be VERY difficult for people to even FIND work currently? Even the govts own figs admit there are (last time I checked) 40% more people applying for jobs than there are jobs advertised? Where I live is a VERY deprived area, when dd and I were BOTH job hunting a few years ago (in my case false optimism re health) I learned just how bad things are and I know they're even worse now. We were mainly (though not solely) applying online as that's where's most jobs are not only advertised but how employers expect you to apply now (try doing that without a decent computer let alone printer at home, massively reduced library hours and libraries have limited and old/mainly unserviceable equipment now). Several job sites show you how many people have applied for EACH POSITION. Round here for many of the roles we were applying for (which with our different cv's, age etc covered pretty much every industry) there were easily over 200 applicants PER JOB on EACH SITE, most jobs were advertised on a number of sites too and while there is quite possibly that crossover of the same person applying for the same job more than once because they've mistakenly not realised they've already applied on another site - easily done if you're applying for lots, that's still HUNDREDS of people applying for that job.

The job dd eventually got she was one of 15 successful out of over 2000 applicants!

There AREN'T enough jobs to go around.

When you ALSO consider that the definition of "paid employed" according to this govt is equivalent to ONE HOUR of paid work PER FORTNIGHT then you need to be very sceptical of their "lower unemployment" stats too.

They're also doing NOTHING to create jobs or support employers to do so, indeed most of the current cabinet have actively voted against proposals that would lead to job creation.

"ive got no kids" oh ffs! Then you clearly have NO IDEA how much kids cost either! NOT just in terms of bills/purchases but in the effect of having to consider childcare availability, needing time off if they're sick etc clueless utterly clueless!

@bogglesgoggles - because it's politicians who manage the overall economy! They create the situations that lead to how much housing costs, how much our bills are, how many jobs there are, if the populace is educated and healthy enough to work, if they're able to get work despite discriminatory practices by employers, whether employees are protected at work - from rights to actual physical safety... So yea it IS largely down to politicians.

"You clearly have been drinking the kool-aid so there’s no point in reasoning with you. But you are exactly what is wrong with this country." Hear hear!

Please DO tell me how my ex cheating, leaving me a single parent, the car accident - which happened while I was stationary due to being hit by a twat on his phone - and which left me disabled, and the mental breakdown I then had as a result of trying to cope with all that while living in a place far from friends/family due to that was where exs family were from and I couldn't afford to move to "home" and the virtually complete lack of input from mh services to get better, and the lack of support when dd finally got HER disability DX - how EXACTLY was that MY fault?!

I started work from 16 full time, been a full time student twice, the 2nd time while ALSO being a single parent AND working part time AND doing a voluntary role in the community, before becoming sick/disabled as I am now, I was very rarely off work sick, frequently described as a "grafter" and promoted quickly in most of my roles where a promotion was available. I hold 2 degrees and a raft of other qualifications. Yet according to people like you I deserve to live watching every penny and worried sick every time I hear the letterbox go! ODFOD!

"Add mental health issues in there and if you haven't got support you're screwed." Yep!

Yet again @Graphista you make extremely compelling posts, not that "those" will bother reading or caring. Full eyes closed, fingers in ears. I did want to thank you for taking the time to post your brilliance yet again.

We're currently trying to move home, 47 falls/17 hospital admissions in last 8 months and we are expected to find a months rent, in advance, despite this being social housing, current accommodation deemed unsuitable by social services, GP, and other medical professionals in writing due stairs (me wheelchair, DP blind/arthritic). Where do you think we find this from? Well, council tax hasn't been paid for three months, I've been skipping meals, cancelled appointments so less fuel, and more. And it's taken two years to finally get a suitable offer, subject to various other bullshit.

Post started by the Daily Mail, shoo fly don’t bother me

Yet again @Graphista you make extremely compelling posts, not that "those" will bother reading or caring

Seconded. Full agreement @Graphista

Wow! Thanks Steve and monkey

Steve I am SO SORRY you're going through all that, I'm probably suggesting stuff you have already tried but do you have an assigned sw to help? Have you tried getting charitable grants to help? Have you tried getting help from MP? (Some are still decent proactive public servants)

I will never be able to afford to buy a house!

I once had a really good career. I had savings and was about to buy my first property. Fortunately the chain fell through. Fast forward a few weeks ExDH and I found we were expecting our first child. Fast forward a few months ExDH turns violent. It turns out disks in my back are pressing on my spinal cord, but also devastatingly, scans and tests reveal osteoporosis. So I watch my savings disappear..... I have to rely on benefits (to my shame).
I live my life through the tales my daughter tells me and the Internet. I can no longer walk. My poor daughter, she misses out on so much. This isn't the life I planned for us. It certainly isn't through reckless lazy decision making on my part. We're stuck in a two up two down and I can't use the stairs, let alone get into the bath/ shower. We have no choice but to muddle on do we? Yes there's people worse off than us, no I don't turn the heating on. Years ago I would have holidays, expensive clothes, meals out etc and I was well off. I'm on completely the opposite end of the scale and no way out.

For those bashing the Tories, ask yourself why austerity was necessary. The previous labour govt left the purse empty, that's why.

“ In cash terms this means a couple with two children would have an income of less than £211 a week after housing costs, and a single parent with one child would be on less than £101.50 a week.”

So it’s not 422 per week per couple it’s 211. So 914 per month for everything bar housing and childcare. That’s how I read it anyway...

That’s pretty tight to me

Fbnick while I am sorry for all you are going through if you think the tories are the answer you are sadly mistaken!

TO THEM you are an irresponsible benefit scrounger who is a burden on society and a drain on taxpayers "hard earned" money.

As for believing the myth that labour irresponsibly emptied the national coffers I hardly know where to start, perhaps with 3 major points

1 the GLOBAL financial crisis was not caused by labour but STARTED with a financial crisis in USA due to irresponsible sub prime lending which quickly spread to the rest of the world as we are all interlinked and what happens in the USA - a MASSIVE economy with far reaching involvement in the economies of other countries - directly affects us! I am no new labour/blairite fan AT ALL but all the leading economists, in the uk and elsewhere say that Browns response was as good as was possible at the time and was indeed copied

2 the headline of labour leaving a note for the incoming chancellor was a long standing "in joke" that had been done since I think the 80's, possibly as far back as the 70's that was used misleadingly

3 it's LONG been disproven that the tories are better for the economy, they borrow more, invest MUCH less in the country (which is a false economy and short sighted AT BEST) and encourage wealth hoarding - where the rich have more money they can possibly need and DON'T feed it back into our society, whereas when the non rich (not even just the poor) have more money - they spend it, stimulating the economy.

The one thing the tories supposedly had going for them was "being better for the economy" it's now known this was an utter myth

Thanks to dp loosing his job and the dire nature of universal credit we have £470 a month (plus £80 cb) after rent to pay all of our living expenses. This is for me, dp and infant.

Work definitely “pays” because even minimum wage earnings were better than this. We were below the poverty line before this happened so had no safety net. Now we’ve found ourselves in amounting debt but luckily dp is starting work again this week- earning a salary per week between the two “poverty” line figures described above.

I will feel rich when he starts (I wish I was kidding). At least on that salary I can buy my son more toys!

Wow! Thanks Steve and monkey
*
Steve I am SO SORRY you're going through all that, I'm probably suggesting stuff you have already tried but do you have an assigned sw to help? Have you tried getting charitable grants to help? Have you tried getting help from MP? (Some are still decent proactive public servants)*

You deserve it. You've been fighting like this for ages.

We have a SW who wrote a compelling letter detailing health needs, and unsuitability, but our current SHA (recently voted worst in area, if not wider), disablist housing officer, don't give two fucks. My complaint regarding both is written and being sent the moment we leave.

Then the largest SHO have an age policy on bungalows. You can be fit and health, over 55 and get one (with wet room). Yet you can be 35, wheelchair user/blind, and be declined on purely age. I made a thread about it on here yet was told this policy is not disability discrimination!

So, hopefully moving, will find out this week, yet new SHO are waiting for a reference from current, we've detailed we cannot manage this property, in writing, many times, and letters from SW, GP, Specialists support this yet the reference cannot possibly be good due said housing officer. We'll see, I guess, but being stuck in a house where getting into the bath for a shower requires a fall and risk of broken bones and stairs with frequent falls is dangerous and majorly depressing. Don't get me started on the no hot water for two years!

@Graphista thank you for highlighting the struggles of people living in poverty.

The stress of breadknife life is unbelievable and I don’t think people truly understand until they’ve experienced it.

It is poverty and I agree.

If it’s just food and treat money, fair enough. But it isn’t. It’s the tax, the rates, the repairs, the car or bus, the clothes, the tv license, the phone, the furniture, the fridge, the cooker breaking down, the illness, the extra school costs....

Modern life is not potatoes and living with grandma. It just isn’t.

I doubt that the figures are that amount in “spare” money, but even if it was, what would be wrong with the “poverty” figure giving people more than a basic subsistence standard of living?

And full sympathies to life and lbnicj and all the others going through hrs times. DP has a good job so we are not in poverty. However you throw in one factor, just one, and I can totally see why that stripped down amount becomes impossible.

For example my DS has severe SN. Yet services from NHS are not there, and education severely lacking too. I had to not work to provide these missing services. I look at others and the cost of even minimal services for DS is £200 a week. Of course I don’t have it. But some do. That’s some inequality there isn’t it?

Some other kids like DS are getting all their professional medical needs. Because parents are on way, way more than £200 a week.

My DS is getting a fair amount as I’m able to not work.

Anyone on £200 or £400 as OP says, if have the same DS, who will live with severe untreated / supported SN for their entire lives, probably dependent on said parents.

How is that not poverty?

myself2020

That is my whole point. There is REAL poverty in the UK, people who need foodbanks, children who cannot be properly clothed. Lumping us all together does these people a terrible wrong. There is real poverty and we need to eliminate it.

"You deserve it. You've been fighting like this for ages." Bless you for saying so.

Being trapped by my health issues makes me most often feel pretty useless and invisible. I've always been "politically engaged" but I'll freely admit, I knew it was tough, I knew there was discriminatory policies and practice but I had NO IDEA how bad it was until it affected me - it's like parenthood, you don't REALLY know what it's like until you live it)

Then as I've gained more experience myself I've grown increasingly resolute that people need to know.

Sounds hellish what you and your dp are going through.

I was SO NAIVE at the start and believed that mostly, as long as I was "honest" and because I had been a "good person" prior to first claiming benefits that while it may take a short while it wouldn't be a problem getting what the law said I was eligible for... Ohhhh how wrong I was!

From the very first time going to the council to claim because when my ex and I split due to his cheating, I was a sahm at the time with no income of my own except child benefit. (He wiped out the joint account WITHIN DAYS) - the snotty little 18/19 year old who looked me up and down then sneeringly said "another one of them single mum claims yea?" As if being a single mum was a criminal offence!

To WRONGLY being told that I was ineligible to claim as a single mother - because my estranged husband was in the army!

To child benefit insisting on keeping paying into the joint account I no longer had access to. (Took bloody months to get them to pay into right account!)

To tax credits completely Fucking me over with an "understandable error" my first month back in work which left me unable to pay dds nursery fees (VERY lucky parents able to lend to me till it was sorted - not everyone has that!)

To dwp WRONGLY telling me I couldn't as a full time student claim ANY additional benefits during academic year AND messing me up during summer breaks.

To my first claims for disability benefits being pretty much instantly denied (discovered this is VERY Common)

To WRONGLY being told mental illness "doesn't count" as a disability

To WRONGLY being told I was "legally required" to tell dwp exactly what I spend every penny on

To being regularly "inspected" to make sure I hadn't moved a man in - even though there was NO REASON for them to think so, being asked THE most personal questions - which I've since learned they weren't allowed to do!

Huge learning curve learning -

A not to believe what dwp/tax credits/child benefit tell you without triple checking elsewhere

B to not even ATTEMPT to complete the lengthy, very much deliberately worded to make claimants answer in a way that disadvantages them, forms to claim benefits WITHOUT expert guidance (I had done what MANY claimants do [for many reasons, pride, self respect, avoiding giving certain embarrassing details] and described my health based on my BEST day and only including the details that pertained to my main condition, meaning I left out a lot of the difficulties I experience on a daily basis, or didn't describe how bad things could be & often were)

C to not try and mask my difficulties during interviews/assessments - again something people naturally do out of embarrassment etc

D that it's really shockingly common for disability claims to be denied - in hopes that the claimant won't have the resilience, support or knowledge to appeal.

Then there's all the things that plain make "being poor expensive"

not being able to take advantage of "special offers" or bulk buying

Can't buy more expensive items outright rather than on credit because you don't have the upfront capital

not being able to access cheap credit

being forced into more expensive circumstances because of poor credit or even the type of housing you can access - I'm stuck on energy meters because the previous tenant of my sh flat couldn't manage on a credit meter and so prepay meters were put in - BUT the meters that have been fitted aren't transferable to credit setup so that's stopping ME from switching to a credit set up - which I'm normally fine using - because I have to pay to get these meters removed and the meters whichever credit company I move to put in

not being able to save to get better quality goods eg repeatedly buying £5 ballet pumps because the last pair are falling apart and need replacing NOW

Being more likely to go overdrawn, however careful you are, often due to someone else's error - eg Asda are bloody murder for double charging and then taking up to 10 days to refund! That has often led to me incurring o/d fees and bank charges - because you're SO CLOSE to the line!

Higher transport costs due to poor location (due to not being able to afford to live more centrally), disability (more likely to need to use taxis), either not being able to drive (disability) or can't afford the upfront costs to get and maintain a car, even though overall this is generally cheaper than using even public transport like buses.

Having higher insurance costs - due to location (perhaps having to live in a high crime area), status (tenants tend to pay more than owners) or again being able to pay a lesser amount if paying annually in advance rather than instalments.

"However you throw in one factor, just one, and I can totally see why that stripped down amount becomes impossible."

Shelter estimates that 1/3 of working families are just ONE pay cheque away from becoming homeless. I've become homeless twice, the first time due to deteriorating mh (and lack of support to help me manage finances), the 2nd time landlords employers went bust without warning, they lost their job, clearly hadn't given themselves a sufficient buffer in case of this happening, we were evicted, I didn't have the money to rent privately as even after getting deposit back from that landlord wasn't enough to cover all necessary costs, social housing won't house you UNTIL you're evicted - ridiculous how it works, so it ended up with dd and I being homeless and in emergency accommodation for several weeks before getting our current home.

If you think it can't happen to you I would seriously urge you to look at your worst case scenario (sudden death or incapacitating illness of main or sole earned in your family - bearing in mind in several parts of the U.K. Benefits claims are taking several MONTHS until first payment, also most places waiting lists for social housing are pretty long too) and if possible put plans in place to give you a safety buffer.

There is often much talk of how "irresponsible" the poor are, I'm going to say something really controversial now and say I think those who DO have a bit extra, spare money but not loads, who spend that extra on luxuries RATHER than on organising themselves to give themselves that buffer - a savings account containing at least 2 months living costs, and/or life assurance and critical illness cover AT LEAST for the main earner are more irresponsible.

Fully expecting a flaming for that, and realise I should have done something like that myself. Certainly I regret being a sahm and not getting critical illness cover for myself (I had thought - wrongly - I wouldn't get it as I wasn't a high rather)

But instead of flaming me. Perhaps consider learning from my mistakes? Protecting yourself and your family from potentially ending up in my position?

Dadshere - while you're not necessarily wrong, starting by supporting any of those who qualify as poor has a knock on effect, it reduces the demand on certain resources meaning they are then available to those most in need

@SimplySteveRedux Im really sorry to hear you are STILL having to wade through all that shit re. housing. I remember your thread well