To think "Persuasive Writing" lessons shouldn't encourage students to make up 'facts' and statistics?

[diagonallies]

My two DCs have both had several English lessons on the topic of persuasive writing in both primary and secondary school. These have focussed on persuasive techniques, but every time they have been told it's fine to make up some statistics or facts to strengthen their argument, presumably on the grounds that it's an English lesson, not a science lesson or a lesson on critical thinking.

But surely critical thinking should be at the heart of everything our children learn at school? If it's ok for future journalists, politicians, bloggers and advertising copywriters to make up persuasive stats in their English essays, then can we really be confident they will ever unlearn that?

No, some teachers have agreed with the point in principle but have explained why they do what they do. That's much more persuasive (and grown up) than "all teachers are right, and people should stop telling us how to do our jobs".

If the teacher is telling them to make up facts in a report or project which requires research then that's bollocks and should be challenged

But the threads not about project work or research. It's about teaching kids techniques to use in persuasive writing.

And writing fictional accounts of things is very much part of parcel of English GCSE.

YANBU. I teach persuasive writing and I hate this, mainly because of the worrying precedent in fake news. But also because it avoids the true skill and technical application of the form. No harm in giving some simple statistics and getting people to work out a coherent argument from them. It would be a far more useful practical skill than make-it-up-as-you-go-along.

I'm a primary school teacher (key stage 2) and have never encouraged this. We research facts and statistics to use as part of our writing and to build knowledge about the topic studied, children shouldn't be making them up.

@Namelessinseattle but I read research that 99% of Insta influences surveyed said thry were always honest in the reviews

If it's a research piece of the lives of Penguins then yes it makes sense the figures aren't made up. We should protect penguins be ause 47% live in West London and are scared of gum crime, or 37 billion live in the Anctartic but are expected to go extinct on Tuesday.
If it's just about writing a piece to convince Mayor Jobs that he should tackle unemployment in Jobsville then its perfectly fine.

If you don't think your teachers are capable of helping kids see the difference and think the teachers will be responsible for commuting fraud in the future, move school

We do teach how to research and find facts/statistics from reliable sources. It's incredible how many teens think Yahoo answers or a meme on Facebook can be considered as 'fact'. We also teach critical thinking (analysing articles, thinking about bias, identifying opinions presented as fact etc.). This is all through Key stage 3 as well as into Key stage 4. We don't teach referencing / footnotes as frankly we don't have the time. The making up of statistics is simply one part of one English language paper where they need to show they know how to use persuasive techniques. Since teachers aren't psychic and therefore don't know what the topic may be, and since teenagers can't be expected to know statistics for any random topic that crops up, they are told they can fabricate these. They can also take on the viewpoint of someone other than themselves (e.g. pretend to be a teacher or an MP). The point is to demonstrate the skill and create a convincing and compelling piece of writing in the limited time that they have available. That's it. Seems a really bizarre thing to get wound up over.

But the threads not about project work or research. It's about teaching kids techniques to use in persuasive writing.
I know this and you know this.

Anyone would think that there is a difference between:
A) Teaching features of persuasive writing
B) Applying features of persuasive writing as a writing exercise
C) Conducting research and creating a evidence based piece
D) Teaching issues of bias and reliability and critical literacy skills

It's going to be even more surprising for some to realise that, shock horror, we can actually do all of those things and do all of those things.

That's much more persuasive (and grown up) than "all teachers are right, and people should stop telling us how to do our jobs".
I don't believe you can reasonably tell us how to do our jobs. If you had enough knowledge to discuss teaching of reading and writing skills in a meaningful way then it would show in your posts.

For example, I dislike having a big long checklist of devices to shoehorn in because it can lead to dull and formulaic writing. More often than not the students who resort to making up statistics haven't got enough wider general knowledge to make them plausible and the use of techniques they can feel very tagged on.

Equally I entirely understand that a check list is reasonable starting point when learning the features (especially at younger ages).

Writing a persuasive letter to an alien convincing them to come to earth with some made up statistics isn't some sort of nightmare you make it up to be, neither is making up some statistics about sport in a GCSE exam.

If I was teaching a KS2 topic work and doing big writes, however, then they'd have studied the topic in detail, looked at real facts and that would feed into their work because there are 2 purposes there: one is linked to topic knowledge and the other is the extended writing.

If you consider secondary. If you have an able group then the checklist approach limits their writing as they move through the school, however they need to understand how and when and why to select the best rhetorical features for the effect they are intending.

If you teach a weaker group who tend to write as they speak and really struggle then giving them a few basic techniques to use that are simple means they actually gain some marks and show a basic understanding of persuasive features.

Factor in that there's a difference between:
A) A project done in ks2/3 where students do some research, are taught how to research, explore bias and critical thinking and then select the best facts to go into their own piece of writing
And
B) An assessed piece of transactional writing in exam conditions at KS4 where students have to plan and write a full piece in 45 minutes on an unseen topic.

Staff know the difference and (funnily enough) the students understand the difference.

There are a range of things to consider when setting up a writing task and a blanket 'I don't like X so exam boards should be lobbied on it' shows no nuanced understanding.

There's a campaign in my area against a new development. The campaign is run by ordinary residents using social media and door to door leaflets. They've persuaded hundreds of people to support their campaign - perhaps the real-life equivalent of a "9" in GCSE. But if every one of those hundreds had asked the question "do you have a reference for that statistic?" or "what is the evidence for that claim?" they would have quickly realised a lot of what they were being told was exaggerated mumbo jumbo, just like some of the Brexit arguments and much of Donald Trump's output. The inevitable outcome will be that when the development goes ahead (and it will, due to evidence-based reasoning on the planning committee) those people will feel betrayed and think that "nobody listened" and "the system is corrupt" or "somebody took a bung".

If we don't learn to look for evidence in school, then when do we learn it? Giving students the power to persuade, without giving them the tools and the moral compass to do it responsibly, is missing a trick.

And it doesn't take much time to teach people how to include references - I wasn't taught to do it until I got to university, at which point someone just said "you need to include references - they look like this".

This is just a cultural thing - at some point an exam board will see fit to give an extra mark for students who reference sources (even if just as "made up statistic") and then teachers will be all over it. I'm glad to hear (on this thread) that some of them are already doing it.

68% of English teachers reading this thread can't be arsed to comment.

Lola 👏

I always encouraged my students to make up a statistic within reason. For example, it was fine for them to say “71% of UK teenagers have reported experiencing some form of cyber-bullying”, but not to say “99% of UK teenagers would be comfortable bringing back corporal punishment.” I enjoined them to use their common sense.

OP you don't seem to understand that teaching persuasive writing techniques that kids from across the ability range can use in an exam, and how to interpret and critically assess someone else's data aren't mutually exclusive - they can both be taught - great isn't it.

Kids can also write about aliens invading earth in a creative writing class, then go to a science class and find out why aliens don't exist.

And learn about the bible saying the earth was created in 7 days and some people literally believe that in RE, then go to geography to learn about fossil evidence for the age of the earth!

Mind blowing isn't it!

And really, OP, previous posters are right: of course any professional should be open to discussion with informed parties about how to improve their practice. However, I don’t wander into my GP’s surgery and engage my GP in discussion about how to be a better doctor. She goes to conferences with other professionals for that.

This thread is giving me a stress headache. Of all the problems in education to get wound up about - the OP's focus is a tiny element of one writing form which may or may not be applied in an exam situation as the student chooses?

And how should this be resolved - students raise their hand during an exam and ask to leave so they can research some statistics, the veracity of which is irrelevant as the task assesses technical writing skill?

Blimey. There are plenty of opportunities across all subjects to learn and demonstrate how to research, reference and quote. Tell your DC not to use statistics in their persuasive writing assessments if it helps you sleep at night. There are plenty of other techniques they can use 🙄

The OP is being goady, Lola.

Sorry, that was to Little.

I enjoined them to use their common sense
Don't go encouraging common sense.
It's dangerous.
Applying common sense when teaching is the reason for all sins from fake news to some local people expressing an opinion on local developments.
Much better to take direction on teaching English from someone who has no experience or knowledge of teaching English because their (amusingly non referenced) opinion says so.

This is just a cultural thing - at some point an exam board will see fit to give an extra mark for students who reference sources
Oh go on, I'll bite. How do you propose the students know enough references to give appropriately referenced facts and statistics for any range of unseen pieces of transactional writing?

OP, previous posters are right: of course any professional should be open to discussionwith informed partiesabout how to improve their practice. However, I don’t wander into my GP’s surgery and engage my GP in discussion about how to be a better doctor. She goes to conferences with other professionals for that.
Yes. There are many people who are qualified to offer insights into different elements of teaching and learning and education.

Random people with an uninformed opinion of what they think is best are not those people.

herculepoirot2
Methinks so too.

For someone who is so obsessed with GCSE students referencing facts in exams for any topic, they do a stellar job of offering awesome insights into how to teach without a reference in sight.

@herculepoirot2 Yup. Sunday morning boredom?

LittleAndOften

Yup!

@Shesmessybutsheskind I have marked WJEC - do you mean eduqas or are you in Wales? If eduqas they have two pieces to compare like AQA/Edexcel et al. If in Wales then the exam cannot be compared to all other boards as they answer to Welsh assembly not UK government

In Wales, so must be totally, totally different!

"Dear aliens, I recommend that you visit earth because 99%* of aliens who visit give the experience five stars on Trip Advisor."

*Made up statistic.

Not too difficult is it?

But actually, at secondary school, the topics are much more real world. My DD (14) recently wrote an passionate speech about why children should spend more time outside and included a mis-remembered and innacurate stat from a half-baked news report about children spending less time outside than prisoners. She wasn't interested in finding the correct stats, or the correct interpretation of them, because it "doesn't matter".

She wasn't interested in finding the correct stats, or the correct interpretation of them, because it "doesn't matter"

Sensible girl - good exam technique for the question given. She must have been taught well.

Although I suppose she could have spent the time finding an accurate statistic rather than focusing on demonstrating her ability to answer the question. She'd have failed, but you'd have held the moral high ground which is much more important - 85% say so

Hooefully my DD will learn to do it later, because she plans to do a STEM subject at uni, where referencing will be mandated, but unfortunately that's not the case for most young people.