To think "Persuasive Writing" lessons shouldn't encourage students to make up 'facts' and statistics?

[diagonallies]

My two DCs have both had several English lessons on the topic of persuasive writing in both primary and secondary school. These have focussed on persuasive techniques, but every time they have been told it's fine to make up some statistics or facts to strengthen their argument, presumably on the grounds that it's an English lesson, not a science lesson or a lesson on critical thinking.

But surely critical thinking should be at the heart of everything our children learn at school? If it's ok for future journalists, politicians, bloggers and advertising copywriters to make up persuasive stats in their English essays, then can we really be confident they will ever unlearn that?

I teach English. I tell GCSE pupils to make up statistics in their exams ‘but this is the only time you can do that. Don’t become a journalist and think it’s ok. And definitely don’t tell your maths teachers’

Obviously, if it’s not exam prep and we have more time, we use real statistics.

People don't generally feel the need to tell doctors how they can do their jobs better.

Actually, theres lots of debates how people feel the doctor and the NHS could be better.

Alot of them happen on mumsnet.

Again, op asked for opinions, I gave mine

It would be surely be better for the teacher to base the task upon reading materials containing statistics on the topic? Could there not be an exemplary piece/ newspaper article (even a fake one about Nappybots if the story is imaginary)/ a simple fact sheet in order to give students something to work from? That could be created by the teacher before the lesson and would teach students to find, extrapolate and reuse facts to suit their own narrative.

I think it's better for them to make up the facts, as then they will automatically know that people aren't necessarily telling the truth, even if they are very persuasive in their writing.

But then that wouldn’t prepRe them for the actual exam where there will be no fact sheet available.

I thought in the exam they had to use the prior reading material in the first part of the exam as a starting point? So it should simulate that activity really.

And herein lies the problem... ‘teachers’ being blamed for things that exam boards / head teachers / OFSTED / whoever make us do.

Of course we want pupils to know how to research, but they can’t do that in the exam. We don’t set the exam, but we do have to prepare them for it.

I teach - and mark - GCSE English. There seem to be a few misunderstandings in this thread.

@Shesmessybutsheskind that's not exactly true as the link between component A and component B on Paper
2 is tenuous. This year the article was on two sailors and the question was on fame and celebrity. The only link was that Ben Fogle was a famous sailor - no relevant stats at all.

@Cloudyyy my goodness what a genius idea that no teacher has thought of. Ever. A fact sheet to go with persuasive writing. 🤨. I can assure you that I, and many, many fellow teachers, do this regularly. In an exam, however, pupils still need statistics, despite what @ElizabethinherGermanGarden says ... one of the criteria is to use linguistic devices -and for some children a made up statistic makes the difference in grades.

@Pieceofpurplesky I have no idea why you’re being rude and defensive. I wasn’t suggesting it was a new or revolutionary idea of mine?! I never suggested people weren’t doing this. Quite the opposite actually and that’s why I was answering the OP and saying that it seemed the most obvious thing to do.

Pieceofpurplesky You must be right for your exam board.

For my DC's exam, there are about 5 different texts on each Reading part for both Unit 2 and 3. All texts have a topic in common, and the Writing tasks are linked - I've just been looking at past papers. I'm surprised some exam boards don't do it this way.

@Shesmessybutsheskind what exam board is it? I have marked for the three 'big ones' and none are like you describe.
Cloudy, you said 'it would surely be better if the teacher ...' which implies that you think we don't do something.

I was referring to the specific teacher from the OP, not all English teachers.

What percentage of people are currently happy with the NappyBot 400?
83%.

(survey of 93 people who used for Nanny Bot 400 for over a week)

Surely we have enough faith in our teachers to explain to kids its OK to throw in some made up stars in this cos it's just a lesson but obviously in real life you'd have to research them? "

My son will do AQA. Last year component A was two extracts about surfing, one an autobiography describing someone getting involved in the 1950’s the 2nd a piece of travel writing from 1875. The persuasive question was about fairness and corruption in sport today.

Dd did Edexel. They call it transactional writing. The extracts were two accounts/obituaries of musicians. They had to then write a review of a piece of music, theatre book etc. Dd gained a Grade 9 from writing a review of a musical she hadn’t yet seen.

My take on this is that they are allowed to make up statistics in an exam but not in a real life context. In which case it's ok I suppose. If the teacher is telling them to make up facts in a report or project which requires research then that's bollocks and should be challenged. If i was wriring the exams I would present them with statistics to use as i think making up statistics is poor and not a great way of supporting the Maths department who would rightly disapprove!!

Children aren't stupid and understand the difference but its best to present a united front as far as different departments go.

Sleepingstandingup I challenge that statistic as I know for a fact that 25 of those 93 were insta influencers who also provided paid for content for the nanny bot so I think that’s statistic isn’t even trustworthy to be honest.

I'm very uncomfortable about students getting extra marks for making up a stat - there will be many students who would struggle (with their concience) to do that, even if their teacher had said it was ok. Children on the autistic spectrum would find it especially difficult.

If the exam boards are the crux of the issue then they can be lobbied to make changes but, first of all, those that can influence them (right-minded teachers, and perhaps organisations that lobby for better journalism etc) need to recognise it as a problem and want to do something about it.

OP you're making such a big deal about one tiny part of education. There's nothing wrong with making up a statistic in an exam when you have no access to research. Including a statistic is part of persuasive writing. Students need to be prepared to make it up so they practice this before the exam.

Do you also disagree with students using an arbitrary amount when solving a maths problem? Or inventing a scenario to answer a science question?

I think what this shows is that children are writing texts far beyond their maturity by being given a tick list of features. Why do 11 year olds need to know how to write a letter of complaint to their mp, a letter persuading a company to stop doing something, an entire non fiction text etc etc.

I think you are right in principal op. If you’re writing a text about a real thing you should be taught to write it properly. However bear in mind that researching and referencing are additional skills that need teaching along with the text itself.

But the government and political parties regularly make things up don’t they? Brexit “facts and figures” in particular.

I'm very uncomfortable about students getting extra marks for making up a stat - there will be many students who would struggle (with their concience) to do that, even if their teacher had said it was ok.
They gain marks for using a range of persuasive techniques.
It's not a case of a mark per technique. My very able students are told not to make up any because more often than not it feels contrived and will hinder their flow and flair. They will gain high marks, if not full marks without a made up statistic in sight.

Weaker students who struggle to use a range of techniques will probably rely more on rhetorical question, repetition and statistics.
Children on the autistic spectrum would find it especially difficult.
I'm going to suggest that a teacher teaching child with ASD is probably going to know that and teach accordingly.
We're not idiots you know.

If the exam boards are the crux of the issue then they can be lobbied to make changes
They don't need to be. Using statistics is a persuasive technique.

What is it with the summer holidays and people deciding they know how to do our jobs best?

What is it with the summer holidays and people deciding they know how to do our jobs best?"

Well in this case it was a long car journey to a holiday destination, with a soundtrack of More or Less and Infinite Monkey Cage podcasts.

But if people are constantly suggesting ways that teaching could be improved, it is because teachers are such important influencers in our children's lives, and in the lives of all our future fellow citizens. (And before you ask, yes, I think you should be paid more!).

it is because teachers are such important influencers in our children's lives, and in the lives of all our future fellow citizens

Yes we are. BUT this doesn't mean we are solely responsible for the upbringing of said citizens. Teachers are told to cure all of societies ills. The last term alone we were told to tackle knife crime and mental health problems with no extra training, support or funding. Just an attitude of "sod it, let the teachers deal with it, they're an easy target".

Pieceofpurplesky WJEC. They used to be very similar to AQA, etc but changed their exams in 2015 to the one my DC are doing now. Have a look at them online.

But if people are constantly suggesting ways that teaching could be improved, it is because teachers are such important influencers in our children's lives, and in the lives of all our future fellow citizens.
Which would be fine, if it was a reasonable point about how teaching can be improved.
Except it's not. It's 'I don't like this element and therefore it must be wrong despite multiple teachers explaining why it is a perfectly valid decision'.