To think "Persuasive Writing" lessons shouldn't encourage students to make up 'facts' and statistics?

[diagonallies]

My two DCs have both had several English lessons on the topic of persuasive writing in both primary and secondary school. These have focussed on persuasive techniques, but every time they have been told it's fine to make up some statistics or facts to strengthen their argument, presumably on the grounds that it's an English lesson, not a science lesson or a lesson on critical thinking.

But surely critical thinking should be at the heart of everything our children learn at school? If it's ok for future journalists, politicians, bloggers and advertising copywriters to make up persuasive stats in their English essays, then can we really be confident they will ever unlearn that?

Call Micheal Gove, he's the one who made everything exam focussed. Of course we researched when we had coursework.
How do you expect students to write persuasively, using statistics, opinions or anecdotes, on a topic they don't know in exam conditions without a little artistic licence? What exam markers do you think are around with the time and pay to check all these facts and statistics for authenticity? Yabvu

I teach 8 year olds.

Wrong, it doesn't take you ages to look up a couple of stats, it can take a class of teenagers ages.

Ah well then let's forget using facts, because teenagers take a while to look up some stats. Or maybe we could teach them that if they takes ages looking up stats then they wont have enough time to complete the work

My daughter is 15. Looking up stats, would be something she would be expected to do at home or in the library. So there woildnt be a classroom of them doing it.

Creative writing is never mentioned once in the national.curriculum

The genre of writing my examples fall into comes under persusive writing; directly in line with the OP's title.

Looking up stats, would be something she would be expected to do at home or in the library.

And how is she supposed to do that in an exam?

Hell's bells.

If teachers are placed in a position where they have to tell children to make stuff up to persuade other people of something, we really have entered the end times. I see why you have to do it but doesn't it make you want to throw stuff? Why are at least some of you sounding
as if you think it's ok?

So I can help you do it better. I want to repay your kindness

Hahhaha, yea I am sure you can. A fresh perpective is always welcomed. Are you saying people cant have an opinion, if they arent teachers?

I actually work for one of the world largest employers in Continious Improvment. I work with teams across the world to get that fresh perspective. A huge part of my teams role, is persuasive writing. It's a skill, and is very helpful if you can already do it before you enter the work place. I employee every person who comes on to my team and heavily involved in recruitment. So I know what employers want. And it's not made up facts.

Before that I worked in senior management for a utilities company. Again persuasive writing was a large part of my job role secure, funding for certain teams/training and employment opportunities.

Thankfully, I do it all on a laptop though, despite having dyslexia (as you can probably tell) I also have an English Language and English literature A-level. Both serve me well at work.

And how is she supposed to do that in an exam?

OP didnt reference an exam. She was talking in general. During an exam it would be better to put non stats than fake ones.

I dont know if pp is right, but if exams boards dont like it, why would it be encouraged?

I never done your job

On that basis I feel it would be wrong of me to tell you how to do it better.

Creative writing is never mentioned once in the national.curriculum

Picture of Ks4 National Curriculum attached.
Describe/Narrate is what you would call creative writing. Only local authority funded schools are required to follow the NC but most schools follow fairly similar curriculum designs due to exam and OFSTED restrictions/guidelines.

The thing is, I don't feel like it is awful to make things up. It's like saying it's awful that your toaster doesn't boil water- we are not trying to teach them to reference and research, although there are subjects where that is touched upon, we are trying to teach them to develop, control and deliberately shape language- what the language is is almost irrelevant, it is what they do with it that matters.

Hidingwhoiam

Or maybe we could teach them that if they takes ages looking up stats then they wont have enough time to complete the work

My god you are a genius. Teachers would never have thought of that.

Do you know what happens when you do this?
You get complaints from parents about how the child isn't being given the required time to do the work.
How there marks are dropping and its the teachers fault.

Just FYI, I have even set up the computer monitoring system so that they can only go on the right pages of the right websites and it still takes them forever.

I have even put printed copies on their desks and the data up on the board yet still get incorrect information back.

Persuasive writing is a skill which has to be taught. It's ok if other skills - like researching and correctly citing sources - aren't made the focus of the activity. The children will learn those skills in a different lesson.

Also, they are taught to quote/cite reference in reading and in literature.

I'm not a massive fan of the English curriculum as it stands at the moment but it has far bigger flaws than them making up a few stats for persuasive writing.

On that basis I feel it would be wrong of me to tell you how to do it better.

I didnt tell you how to do your job.

I gave an opinion. Are you saying that's not allowed? Because you are a teacher? Or cant we have an opinion on anything that involves someones job. So basically no opinions at all?

My opinion is that maybe you need to improve your own pursuavsive writing. Because, you getting defensive and trying to shut people down, isn't convincing me that using made up stats is of benefit to anyone.

Wether you are allowed to or not. Though I dont know if the poster who says exam boards dont like it is right.

These have focussed on persuasive techniques
Exactly OP, that's what the focus is on, not the accuracy of the statistics. They are learning how to persuade, and that's it.

The group I've taught (age 11) were able to understand the Learning Objective for the lesson and were able to understand that the making up of statistics was just that, to enable them to illustrate the techniques they had used as that was what they were assessed on. They knew that the stats they'd made up were not accurate because the scenario they had been given was hypothetical.

YABU and really overthinking this. They’ve been told to ‘make up’ facts in these instances so they have something to write - it’s better than sitting there not knowing what to put down. Children will understand the context of this and don’t need to unlearn anything, they have more common sense and intelligence than you give them credit for.

BoneyBackJefferson I imagine its bloody hard. I appreciate that.

I dont think the answer is to allow them to make up stats to suit their opinion. It's not improving their persuasive writing skills.

Slightly off topic, but I spent years persuading my DDs that they could make things up for MFL. Yes, your favourite activity might be ice-skating, but if you know the French for swimming but not ice skating, then say your favourite activity is swimming!

If teachers are placed in a position where they have to tell children to make stuff up to persuade other people of something, we really have entered the end times

I think you've just misunderstood. The point of the lesson isn't 'you should make things up if you think it will convince people to believe you.'

The purpose of the lesson is to teach children to write persuasively. In real life, this would usually involve the persuading party citing relevant statistics in support of their position. But rather than having children spend all of their time researching relevant statistics (if that's even possible - a lot of persuasive writing deliberately focuses on fantasy topics so as to keep the focus on the writing itself, not the subject), they are told it's fine to use an imaginary statistic for the purposes of the exercise.

So a child who has been told to write a persuasive essay on the subject 'Aliens from Mars should be allowed to have drivers licences' might say 'a survey conducted by the department for transport shows that aliens have 12% fewer motor accidents per year than humans'.

This isn't going to teach children they can just make up facts willy nilly, or that you should lie to persuade people. Children are more than capable of understanding that the purpose of the lesson is to teach them how to use statistics in a persuasive manner.

Hidingwhoiam

I do see where you are coming from, and I do in essence agree with the point that you are making.

But there are so many other requirements that have to be contained within the lesson that it almost becomes impossible to be able to get pupils to use real data. And this includes SEN through to M/GAT.

I gave an opinion. Are you saying that's not allowed? Because you are a teacher? Or cant we have an opinion on anything that involves someones job. So basically no opinions at all?

People don't generally feel the need to tell doctors how they can do their jobs better.

Everyone can do their jobs better, and everyone should be open to constructive feedback about how they can do their jobs better. I have enormous admiration for teachers in general, but not the ones who stick their hands over their ears and say "la la la" when someone suggests improvements. Their job is too important for that.

Would everyone just read @VivienneHolt 's post! There's a lot of misunderstanding about this text type from those of you who don't teach it. It really isn't as bad as making up stats on actual events or circumstances!

I'm laughing at the idea of expecting footnotes for any facts or statistics in a piece of children's writing.

Enlighten me how a Y11 student in an exam with 45 minutes to plan and write a piece of non fiction on an unseen topic should ensure they have adequately referenced any facts they have.

I think shoe horning statistics into writing often leads to clumsy writing so have an issue with it being taught as a technique, but your whole approach is a bit much OP.

FFS, no wonder there is a crisis in the retention and recruitment of teachers.

I agree with the posters who have said that children understand what they are being told to do a lot better than other posters are giving them credit for.

As well as being Head of English I am an exam marker. Although the exam board does often discourage the practice of students making up spurious statistics in its bollocks-ridden report that comes out after the exams, in fact it can benefit them, especially if it is one of the only persuasive techniques they use, and can gain them the odd mark, which could make the difference between one grade and another. It's a technique many students find a lot more doable than some of the others and is therefore a good one for such students to have in their armoury. Of course, you wouldn't encourage high ability students to be reliant upon, or perhaps even use at all, this technique, but some of the creative ones can come up with some funny and inventive stats, perhaps even inventing Orwellian sources for them to have come from, and those students will, with the help of other techniques they will also have proved adept at using, reach the top band.

I've been teaching successfully for 16 years and therefore don't care what someone on mumsnet thinks of this practice really, but I do love talking shop a bit.