To think this is unfair? (Work)

[MouthFullofGum]

I hate my job. Want a new one but the area I want to go to I need training.

Thankfully I work for a large global company so was going to request shadowing/work experience etc

My manager has said I can have 1 hour every couple of weeks

I’ve worked there 3 years. I do more work than anyone (no bragging) and I thought companies were suppose to encourage growth and development

@adaline why should they? Because it's keeping a valuable staff member who wants to progress within the business happy and enabling them to do so. It also stops them from having to go through the expense of recruiting when the time time comes.

I expect OP's manager is of the same view as some of you on this thread - that looking to expand your skills is uppity and entitled, and that you should be so grateful to have a job at all that you shouldn't expect any kind of loyalty or investment from your company
And you'd have a point if the company wasn't offering anything.

But they HAVE offered her a shadowing opportunity. She could also do any of the list of things I've suggested to develop her skills as well.

The issue is that the OP has been given an opportunity to shadow and instead of grasping it and making the most of it, She s complaining like a stroppy child that it isn't good enough for her and she's so much better than everyone else. That's not a positive attitude to have in the workplace. It's her attitude that is uppity, not the desire to learn and progress.

@LolaSmiles. The OP said that usually when she finishes she has to do other people's work. That says to me her managers are fully aware of what she is doing and are taking the piss.

Thank god I work for a multi national that rewards people for their hard work and is forward thinking enough to understand that you don't just progress by going upwards - moving to a different department is encouraged to help you progress!

Ohbehave1
My point is that has to can mean very different things.
It could be that having compelted their work, and having had a chat with their manager about how else they can be deployed that the OP is routinely directed to do other people's tasks.

It could be that OP has done her work but then helps other people out because there's 30 mins to go and it helps them out with bits and pieces, but later complains about how they're always doing other people's jobs.

It could be that OP is doing loads more off their own back and then whining about their workload.

It could be that there's not set 'my job / your job' and the team have a deadline and the OP has decided that because they get more done they must be doing other people's work.

It could be any of the above. It's always worth being cautious when people in the workplace claim they are loads better than everyone else, work harder than everyone else etc.

How long will it take to train?

If you dislike your job that much
?
How to do it? If they won't allow more than an hour?
Shadow /train taking some days of leave.

I worked voluntarily to get a good sense of a job and show I could do it.... It worked...

The issue is that the OP has been given an opportunity to shadow and instead of grasping it and making the most of it, She s complaining like a stroppy child that it isn't good enough for her and she's so much better than everyone else. That's not a positive attitude to have in the workplace. It's her attitude that is uppity, not the desire to learn and progress

It's a poor opportunity. You need to learn your value in the workplace - you don't have to be grateful for scraps.

There's also no indication that OP isn't going to grasp and make the most of the opportunity. She can do that and still express valid frustrations that it isn't as good as it could be.

I don't see any uppity attitude here unless you automatically assume that a woman knowing she is good at her job, and that she is picking up slack from her colleagues and who wants a new challenge is uppity. Sadly all too many people do feel that way about women (while seeing men who express the same attitude as go-getters with healthy ambition).

At no point has OP behaved like a 'stroppy child', but again, infantilising women instead of listening to their concerns is a very common tactic in the workplace.

Job shadowing is usually encouraged and a good way to show you want to progress. But you are interrupting the day of someone else (the person you shadow) which I imagine is why it’s been restricted

VivienneHolt
The opportunity is what she makes it. It's not about being grateful for scraps. It's about seeing that individual personal development fits into a bigger organisational picture and sometimes you just don't get what you want.

She does her 1 hour shadowing every couple of weeks and goes in having done her prep and with a list of things she wants to find out, proves how good she could be, they put a word in to have her work on a project and be released a bit more from her cureent role to do it (having demonstarted her potential in this area, not 'but i want more time') or a secondment is on the way due to a maternity cover and her name is put forward. She can network and get to know different people, find out how they got into that area. They may have contacts of people who could act as a coach or mentor for her to move upwards. She acts on some of those steps that she can or goes back to her manager and says "I'd like to be considered for the next round of training on X".

Or, she can complain because having done job A for 3 years she should get extended time off to shadow someone doing job B "because I want it".

This isn't about gender. I believe in women knowing their worth. I'm also all too aware that people can be very quick to talk themselves up if they're ambitious (male and female, but more likely male). It is stroppy to take the approach of "you've given me an opportunity but it's not 100% what I want, it's so unfair, I do more than everyone etc".

What about asking for special projects to do, or writing up of procedures.

You are paid to do a job and that is what they want you to do. A good company will look to develop talent but ultimately they want the job done with minimal fuss. If you are done earlier are there online courses you could do within the company?

Is there stuff you could do for yourself, like read material from other departments?

The opportunity is what she makes it

This is true to a point (and once again I'm going to point out that complaining on mumsnet is no indication that OP won't make the most of this opportunity) but it's also possible to recognise as an objective fact that offering a person a couple of hours of shadowing a month isn't a ringing investment.

It's ok to do your best with what you have but still want more. It's ok to recognise when your talent and effort isn't being appropriately rewarded. It's important for OP to know what she really wants so that when a better opportunity arises, she is ready to take it.

I firmly believe this is a gender issue. We already know that women are less likely to seek promotion, ask for pay rises or draw attention to their own successes in the workplace, and they face serious disadvantages as a result. The sneering tone of a lot of the posters on this thread calling the OP uppity and entitled and suggesting she's probably not as competent as she thinks she is directly feed into the environment that makes women feel that they have to be meek and unassuming in the workplace.

I can't tell you how glad it makes me when I see women like OP who do know their worth and who recognise that they deserve better from their workplace. It's a sign that she has overcome some of the internalised challenges that keep to many women from achieving top roles in employment.

Sounds very mean to me but then I have a nice boss who wants me to be happy as they know I’ll be more productive.

I firmly believe this is a gender issue. We already know that women are less likely to seek promotion, ask for pay rises or draw attention to their own successes in the workplace, and they face serious disadvantages as a result. The sneering tone of a lot of the posters on this thread calling the OP uppity and entitled and suggesting she's probably not as competent as she thinks she isdirectlyfeed into the environment that makes women feel that they have to be meek and unassuming in the workplace
It is possible to be assertive and know your worth without being uppity.

It is entitled to expect people to give you what you want just because you think you are better than your colleagues (and to put your colleagues down in the process). It is a bit uppity to be given an opportunity and straight away decide it is unfair.

I've met many a woman who sadly didn't know their own worth. I've known many women (and I'd include myself in this) who are driven and assertive. I've also known some women who are the first to chat martyr talk as if they do so much more than everyone else, are so much busier, are therefore better than everyone else and they're just the sort of people who have an inflated sense of how good they are.

A couple of hours a month is a good starting point.

If I think about things I've done in my 2 careers to progress it includes:

• Taking on additional projects in the areas that interest me
• Asking to accompany my managers to different meetings (which turned into me going on their behalf which was a great opportunity)
• Doing some coaching with more experienced staff in different areas
• Reading and courses in my own time to give me a broader knowledge than the workplace
• Volunteering for new challenges
• Asking for a secondment (I got one, was told not a chance on the other)
• If I saw a problem or something we could do better, I suggested it to my manager

I've also had people shadow me working and I've in turn invited people to attend some of my projects to give them opportunities.
Having people shadowing you is additional work, is sometimes useful and sometimes is more hassle than it's worth. The OP doesn't see this though, because it's all about getting what they want now.

The OP's take is to the effect of 'how am I meant to progress if I don't get more hours shadowing'. That's short sighted and doesn't show much initiative.
Ultimately, the people who progress are those who go in with solutions and ideas, people who can slot elements of their aspirations in with an awareness of the company or department priorities over the next few months/years, people who realise they are one part of a whole machine and this understanding comes through in the way they talk about their career and where they are themselves going.

It is entitled to expect people to give you what you want just because you think you are better than your colleagues (and to put your colleagues down in the process). It is a bit uppity to be given an opportunity and straight away decide it is unfair.

You're mischaracterising what OP has said. I don't see the 'expectation' you're complaining of - just disappointment and frustration that the opportunity she has been given is so abysmal.

I don't see how it's 'uppity' to wish that your workplace was more invested in training you. And while we are on the subject of gender in the workplace, 'uppity' is never used to describe men. It is only ever applied to women who don't 'know their place' (i.e. who aren't grateful for what they're given even if it's crap, and never express negative feelings about the situation). It's a horrible, belittling, heavily gendered term.

I think it's worth you considering what your response would have been if a friend had come to you and complained that her work wasn't taking her requests for further training seriously, and had only offered her a paltry shadowing opportunity. Imagine she had said 'I feel like I'm really good at my job and picking up slack from other people, and they have only offered me a couple of times a month.'

Would you think your friend was an uppity, entitled little madam who should be grateful for what she had been given and was also clearly delusional about her abilities, or would you accept that she was good at her job and wasn't having her efforts recognised? I know you don't know the OP in the way you know your friends, but do you think you've been fair in assuming the worst of her and then proceeding as though that's the gospel truth?

I work for a multi national company who encourage development. Every employee gets 12 hours a year. It's usually booked as an hour a month but you can make arrangements to be scheduled out in blocks of time if that works better. 2 hours a month is double what we get. Most people serious about learning new skills or cross training with other depts do this in their own time eg lunch hours, before or after work or on days off. There are internal courses that we can arrange to go on with permission which is usually supported.

It isn’t over generous but can I ask what else you’re doing to give yourself the skills to get the new job. Eg have you undertaken any external training as well, are you studying for other qualifications? Perhaps showing you’re putting in a broader effort as well as wanting hands on experience could help. I try and provide on the job training for team members but would also expect them to be prepared to additionally support themselves in their learning. Have you got a training or personal development plan you’ve discussed with your manager to identify the ‘gaps’ or opportunities?

VivienneHolt
The OP hasn't clarified whether they actually have been directed by their managers to do other people's work or whether they are chipping in when they've got some free time. That's my point.

I only started using the word uppity in reply to another poster who used it. I do think there's a lot to be said for some ambitious people in the workplace who overestimate their own busy-ness and develop quite an arrogant and entitled attitude. That's true for men and women. Men are more likely to display arrogance and a misplaced overconfidence in their ability, but there are still many women out there who seem to think their perceived busy-ness makes them more entitled for promotion and opportunity, regardless of whether their martyr approach is actually enabling them to develop the required skills (which means another women who has stuck to their own job, sought new ways to challenge themself in the team and done some personal development may well be a much stronger candidate but the office martyr thinks they're the ones deserving of more because they do X Y Z)

If it was my friend, I'd encourage her to make the most the opportunity and see what happens.
If nothing happens off the back of the opportunity then they need to have a frank conversation with their manager about where they feel they are at, where their manager feels they are at, what reasonable next steps would look like.
At that point, if nothing changes then the decision has to be made whether to stay or go.

The OP hasn't clarified whether they actually have been directed by their managers to do other people's work or whether they are chipping in when they've got some free time. That's my point.

Does this make a difference? Either way, OP is going above and beyond the requirements of her role and that's something her employer should appreciate. I actually think it's more impressive if she's helping off her own back instead of waiting to be asked.

Someone else using the word uppity first doesn't absolve you of the consequences of you using it. You didn't have to use it because someone else did - you could have challenged it.

Does this make a difference? Either way, OP is going above and beyond the requirements of her role and that's something her employer should appreciate.
Appreciate vs it being a sign someone should be promoted are different things.

I could fill a few hours a week doing stuff that is more other people's job. I help out and do things to support, but first and foremost i look after my career and progression.
When I want the next step I speak to my line manager and head about my ambitions and ask what would be required to get there, what projects I can be involved in.

I certainly wouldn't sit back, do other people's marking for them and then complain if I didn't get the outcome I wanted.

Uppity is a perfectly fine word for describing someone who may be displaying a slightly arrogant approach. I've also heard it used to refer to people 5 minutes into their careers who suddenly feel they are entitled to a fast track promotion.

As I've said many a time on this thread, there are many ways for women to hold their own in the workplace, know their worth, and talk about their progression. I just happen to think that complaining that you can't possibly progress when you haven't got 100% what you want (with almost no consideration of the impact of the opportunity on others who'll have their work affected) doesn't demonstrate the right attitude of someone seeking to move upwards.

Appreciate vs it being a sign someone should be promoted are different things.

Now you're rewriting the story again. OP hasn't suggested she should be promoted, only that she should be given good opportunities to gain new skills.

I could fill a few hours a week doing stuff that is more other people's job. I help out and do things to support, but first and foremost i look after my career and progression.
When I want the next step I speak to my line manager and head about my ambitions and ask what would be required to get there, what projects I can be involved in.

This is exactly what OP has done, but her company is offering her pretty poor 'next steps'. According to you, she has no right to be annoyed about that.

Uppity is a perfectly fine word for describing someone who may be displaying a slightly arrogant approach.

Yes, as long as you don't mind the fact that its a word only ever used to refer to women, and that in using it yourself you're contributing to a culture where women in the workplace are viewed as arrogant, deluded, stroppy and entitled if they have anything other than the meekest expectations in respect of their own career progression.

As I've said many a time on this thread, there are many ways for women to hold their own in the workplace, know their worth, and talk about their progression. I just happen to think that complaining that you can't possibly progress when you haven't got 100% what you want (with almost no consideration of the impact of the opportunity on others who'll have their work affected) doesn't demonstrate the right attitude of someone seeking to move upwards.

I think it's simply that the OP hasn't couched her (very reasonable) frustrations in language that is sufficiently apologetic and self-deprecating for your tastes, and as a result you've decided to exaggerate the scenario, interpret every comment OP has made in a deliberately negative way, and then proceed as if your interpretation is verifiable fact.

There is a lot of internalised misogyny in the way many women interpret the behaviour of other women in the workplace, and I think it's really important to try and recognise and challenge that.

VivienneHolt
She thinks that being busier means she should get what she wants regarding shadowing and has also said that she doesn't feel like she can progress if she doesn't get what she wants. If if that's not seeking a promotion then you know.

Yes, as long as you don't mind the fact that its a word only ever used to refer to women, and that in using it yourself you're contributing to a culture where women in the workplace are viewed as arrogant, deluded, stroppy and entitled if they have anything other than the meekest expectations in respect of their own career progression.
Last person I heard it used about in the workplace was a young male graduate who started talking about promotions he was nowhere near ready for.

You're getting a bit ridiculous pushing the 'oh you think women should be meek, you think women shouldn't know their worth' angle when I've:

1. Repeatedly talked about the importance of women knowing their worth
2. Given at least a dozen ways women (including the OP) could be assertive and take steps to move their career forward
3. Given examples of things I've done in my own career to be proactive and to help others out

I simply have an issue with arrogance and entitlement in the workplace.

And for the record, having a view that isn't 'you're hard done to' and holding a different opinion is NOT internalized misogyny.

It's not as easy as you just saying 'I support assertive women' though, is it? It's easy to say the words, but your attitude on this thread totally contradicts them.

Lots of people say the right things in the workplace, but it doesn't count for anything if they nonetheless think that women who know their worth and actively pursue their goals are uppity.

My words don't contradict a belief in supporting women at all.

I just believe that there are actions and attitudes that are assertive and productive and others that are martyrish and entitled.

Complaining that you can't progress because you haven't been given what you want is entitled.
Pushing your energy into other people's work that don't enable you to develop new skills and then complaining afterwards that you're doing everyone else's work is martyring. If the manager is directing the OP to do everyone else's tasks (vs everyone working on team tasks) then a more serious conversation needs to be had with the manager.

Being busy doesn't always mean someone is taking the most useful steps to furthering their career. The more we reinforce the idea that busy should equal opportunities, the more we hinder women who channel their energy into the wrong thing and then wonder why they aren't getting further.

The best advice I was given as an ambitious woman came from a few ambitious woman who were very successful. Some I learned from informally, others coached me in different roles.
They told me:

1. Direct your energies into things that will make you better and raise your skils/knowledge, not things that suck your time.
2. Make the most of each opportunity you're given. The pay offs aren't always immediately obvious.
3. Build people up. Sometimes building people up means managing upwards. Be wary of those who are negative about others routinely.
4. Be a radiator not a drain. It's easier to get what you want and be taken seriously when you raise issues.

They were really useful pieces of advice and so much better than someone saying 'but you do all of this stuff so of course you should be rewarded for it in whatever way you wish'. Knowing your worth is as much about realising the power you have on your path as it is expecting others to think of you a certain way.

'uppity' is never used to describe men. It is only ever applied to women

To be fair, the Mr Man, Mr Uppity was a man.

RadishesAndLentils
The example in Google dictionary is also about an uppity MP and his wife.

Cambridge dictionary - Hegot/becamevery uppity when hisfashiondesignswerecriticized.

Merriam Webster- uppitytechnicians / smalluppitycountry

Like I say, the times I've heard it used offline have been referring to young male graduates who have an inflated sense of their abilities for their career stage

she's so much better than everyone else

I never said I was better than anyone else. If I did then please copy and paste. Or don’t put words in my mouth.

I believe what I said (can’t remember word for word) is that I finish my work quickly and to a good standard with so much time left in the day that the only other option is to pick up others peoples outstanding work.

After 3 years working with the same people you do tend to pick up on the ones that expect others to pick up their slack.

There are zero projects to work on.

Shadowing an hour every few weeks/once a month is hardly going to progress anyone’s skills.