To think Charlotte Lucas had the right idea

[GreenPillows]

With marrying Mr Collins?

I reread P&P recently through less romantic/more cynical eyes after a bit of age and life experience. I used to think what she did was awful but now I’ve changed my mind.

AIBU?

I think they used wetnurses and even farmed out their babies and toddlers to suitable families in the neighbourhood - poorer people who could do with the money, most likely the family of the wetnurse. Can you imagine? Then they would be returned when they were toilet trained and could talk!

That's what Jane Austen's family did. One of her brothers turned out to have learning difficulties and so he was left for life with the Foster family. Strange times.

If anyone is interested, the 90s BBC P&P is currently on IPlayer and it'll be there for the next 5 months.

Love this thread.

Just chipping in to say I think Elizabeth Eliot is very aware that she wants/needs to marry... she’s been lured into a false sense of security by being the head of Sir Walter’s household and all the hostessing privileges that entails. Which is why people are so shocked that she’s oblivious to the plans of Mrs Clay.

God EVERY strand just ties up and has huge meaning, doesn’t it? She was not only an artist but a master craftsman.

I read it that Jane Austen, while showing us that it was awful that women like Charlotte had to make these choices, wrote the storyline to show that Charlotte made quite a sensible choice in the circumstances.
I know Jane Austen herself chose to remain a spinster rather that marry someone she didn’t love, but I wonder, having lived the reality of being a spinster in that society, if she didn’t look back and wonder if she’d have been better to make a pragmatic choice like Charlotte.
I kind of wondered if the character of Charlotte was modelled on her a bit.
It would be great to be a Lizzie in fiction, but maybe better to be a Charlotte in the stark reality of being genteel and with not much independent money.

For pp who were describing grandparents expected to be carers of parents...I have an even more modern example of this.
My mum was one of 3 daughters, my grandma seemed to have the opinion that as she was not as pretty or outgoing as her sisters that she would stay single and be her carer/companion. She was happy that my mum was a nurse as this seemed to fit this plan. She was not happy when she fell in love and got married and had two kids. Was jealous of us taking mum’s time and attention from her all the way through. I think we are really lucky that this attitude is dying out and women can make our own way more and have more of a chance of financial independence.

I do wonder whether this was deliberate for a number of reasons; the rest of the cast were older than the character

This is a good point - they all seem late 20s/early 30s. The Keira Knightly version is more accurate I think.

Although the BBC one is still the gold standard in my view.

I kind of wondered if the character of Charlotte was modelled on her a bit.

What an intriguing point!

Perhaps Charlotte was Jane Austen's alternative ending? She advised her niece to 'do anything, rather than marry without affection' and actively chose not to marry herself. From her letters it seems that she had a dread of childbirth, I think most if not all of her sils died young from birth complications and infections. As a busy vicar's wife it is very likely that she would have had to give up her writing and she would no longer live with the sister she adored. Bigg-Wither actually sounds a bit like Collins, a reverend with very good prospects but a big awkward sort of man, though not much is known about his character. However Charlotte chose a husband, a house of her own and children, Austen chose the opposite and I have never seen any evidence that she regreted her decision at all. There are stories that she was in love with Tom lefoy but nothing to really substantiate them, other than a few light-headed remarks about him in a letter to her sister.

But would she go back to Longbourn? Mr Collins was so intertwined with lady Catherine that she may have insisted he stayed there.

But would she go back to Longbourn? Mr Collins was so intertwined with lady Catherine that she may have insisted he stayed there.

But Lady Catherine was a big fan of what was proper, she didn't care about Mr Collins except as a sycophant and easily could have found another to fill the place.

Doesn't it say somewhere that the Collins were never invited as much when Darcy and Col. Fitzwilliam were visiting as she had better things to do?

@Deadringer that’s really interesting. It sounds like overall she was happy with her choice to stay unmarried and didn’t care too much that it people would have looked down on her in that society. I think that makes her really admirable.
I guess the character of Charlotte shows that she also rated women who chose to marry rather than stay unmarried, living with family members, possibly poor.
I wondered did Jane Austen get much money from the publishing of her books? Did she have to be published as a man? I wasn’t sure if women were allowed to publish books at that time?

I've been thinking about this some more wondering: what is the modern day equivalent of Charlotte's decision?

" ... so what first attracted you to multi millionaire Paul Daniels?"

^

She signed herself, 'a lady'. Can't remember exactly but I think she got as little as 50 pounds for one book and 150 for another. Her father originally tried to get p&p published and he was willing to pay, bit it was returned unopened. Imagine.

I bet Mr Collins was a tiger in bed

Ah there’s a foot for every boot bruce!

Also, to whomever said vicars were the Hot Properties of their time, I have often wondered whether modern-day Anglican vicars read for example Anthony Trollope and gnash their teeth about the glory days of yesteryear (Wiltshire 5 bed rectory, power, income, influence, social standing).

I wonder who had the better time in the long term? Mr Collins is a total prat, but Charlotte knows that. She’s gone into this marriage clear-eyed, she knows what she’s getting into and she’s taking steps to manage him so that she can crack on with her respectable life - and he seems to be amenable to that, from what we see.

Lizzie marries Darcy after disliking him for most of the book, until he sorts out Wickham and becomes the hero. But is he going to default back to being closed off and cold? Is she going to be walking on eggshells to keep him sweet - will her social and financial inferiority be thrown in her face if they argue?

What’s better in the context of the times, when all your possessions belong to your husband and divorce is all but impossible and totally out of reach for an ordinary woman? Taking a gamble or walking into something knowing what you’re getting into - even if it isn’t all you might have dreamed of?

Imagine the MN threads P&P could produce....
Darcy would come on here, a man slightly snootily asking for the advice of LADIES, wondering what to do about his ghastly MIL.
Lizzie would post a distraught thread about how the love of her life was either a cold fish in bed, or wanted her to dress up as a pheasant and he pretend to take pot shots at her.

I bet Darcy is a selfish lover, while Mr Collins is so eager to please that he'll do anything Charlotte asks him to.

Nonsense, Darcy clearly goes like a barn door in a storm, and Collins (urgh, must I think about it) would do it through a hole in a sheet* and clothed in matching wincyette gowns.

That's food for thought, Lweji!

I hope she got fond of him in then end, after they had dcs. I don't have many positive feelings towards my dd's father, my exH (a brief and ill-advised match; Jane would have been appalled by my impulsiveness). But sometimes DD has a certain expression when she's about to perform on stage - she's scared but determined not to show it, and she has brave, determined smile, and it makes me feel tender not just towards her but towards her father. Because it's not always someone's strengths you love - you can love them for their vulnerabilities and their little foolishnesses too.

*so I guess at least you wouldn't have to look and could think of England.

Mr England being your gardener.

Darcy is an amazing, well endowed, unselfish lover! So there! ~ gavel ~

I think I would have quite enjoyed being a vicar's wife in the olden days (even though I'm Catholic) because it would probably be the closest thing MC/UC women had to a real job...running the Sunday School, organising the church fete, making sure the elderly got visited regularly.
At least then you could be useful and not just decorative.

I'm pretty sure Colin Firth's is and will drive Elizabeth to unspeakable heights in his arms , but Matthew Macfadyen's is a definitive wimp and a prude.