To think Charlotte Lucas had the right idea

[GreenPillows]

With marrying Mr Collins?

I reread P&P recently through less romantic/more cynical eyes after a bit of age and life experience. I used to think what she did was awful but now I’ve changed my mind.

AIBU?

They said in the BBC version that they deliberately portrayed Mr Collins as very slimy. And I remember reading that David Bamber was very up for it. The role was beautifully portrayed but possibly adding something the source material didn't really contain. I think the 90s version really amps up the hints of grotesque.

And I suppose it’s the David Bamber version I always think of. Who also reminds me of a gross guy I knew in high school which doesn’t help

He was great though.

I agree that (despite its faults) the KK version of Pride and Prejudice portrayed Mr Collins much more accurately that the BBC version.

If you watch the film with the director’s commentary on, he says something along the lines of not wanting to make the character quote so grotesque as he’s been played in the past - he might be awkward, dull and socially inept but he’s not described as repulsive.

Back then, a woman of Charlotte’s social class had very few options outside marriage, and most of those options would leave her dependent on the charity of others. Mr Collins is financially stable, and provided you can put up with a husband who’s a buffoon (and Charlotte knew about that from the outset), he doesn’t seem to have character flaws that would make Charlottes life a misery.

Exactly right, I think.

However, it's not true - as many PPs have suggested - that Charlotte was over the hill at 27. We tend to imagine nineteenth century women being married off in their teens but, in fact, the average age of female marriage in 1800 was 26. Google the Hajnal line - it's fascinating

Charlotte's problem was more the lack of opportunity to meet socially-suitable men and the fact that she wasn't particularly attractive. Mr Collins at least provided security, social standing, and the chance to run her own household, rather than always being dependent on relatives.

Wouldn't the average age of female marriage also include poor women who'd had to delay marriage until they and/or their partner had saved up to set up home though? I'd want to see more class specific figures.

However, it's not true - as many PPs have suggested - that Charlotte was over the hill at 27.

It is true. Within Austen’s milieu anyway. In Persuasion, Anne is 27, is treated like a confirmed spinster with lots of coded references to her ‘last chance’ with. Wentworth.

Google the Hajnal line - it's fascinating Thank you for that, XXC! Really interesting!

I could see the logic, given Charlotte's limited range of options.

BUT... how would you feel about Mr Collins being the father of your children? Having the final say about major decisions, like their education? Being their role model and forming their opinions and attitudes?

I could suck it up for myself, but not for my children.

I could suck it up for myself, but not for my children

Is he that bad, though? He intends to marry one of the Bennet girls, which is kind because it allows one of them to inherit Longbourn (via marriage). He sucks up to Lady Catherine, but that was how to get preferment in the Church - it's not his fault that contemporary society is so hierarchical. Yes, he's pompous and would no doubt be annoying, but I can't see why he'd be a malign influence on kids. He is described as being affectionate to Charlotte.

*I've thought about this a lot over the years. She has made the most fantastic financial deal of her life. She and her kids will get Longbourn when Mr Bennet dies, plus Mr Collins is already doing rather nicely for himself. And she bagged all of that with no dowry, indifferent family connections and not being beautiful.

On the other hand - Mr Fucking Collins in your actual fucking bed. Can you imagine*

^ This

The options are awful. Poor Charlotte.
But I voted YABU. Because ultimately I could not imagine having to have sex with Mr Collins. The thought makes all my insides wither.

Yeah, he’s not a bad person, but Austen does a great job in conveying his sexual unattractive ness.

I think Charlotte would find a reason to promote separate rooms, particularly after they’ve had a few kids.

That's interesting, David Bamber was 41 when he played Mr Collins in the BBC version- 16 years older than in the book. It does change things.

In persuasion Elizabeth is 29 or 30, and while she feels that she is 'approaching the years of danger' she certainly does not consider herself 'old' or unmarriageable. She is looking for a husband, but she has no intention of settling. Imo Anne is considered over the hill at 27 because she does not play the game, she isn't seeking a husband and doesn't put herself in the way of eligible men.

Having the final say about major decisions, like their education?

I'm not sure the children's education would have fallen to the father back then. Children and their upbringing were women's work. When Lady C. is quizzing Elizabeth about her education, she assumes this would have been her mother's responsibility (to E's amusement).

Yes to other major decisions, but as a wife Charlotte would at least have been consulted, whereas as a dependent 'Miss Bates' type living with her brother, say, she'd have had no input whatsoever.

I would have made the same choice as Charlotte, given the unattractive alternatives of becoming a Miss Bates character or being dependent on her male relations. She obtained her independence, her own home, children, and a comfortable life. Mr Collins, whilst self-important and silly, is malleable and Charlotte manages him beautifully, just as she does Lady Catherine. However, I would have given a totally different answer after reading P & P the first time, when it was a GCSE text!

What this thread demonstrates is Austen's brilliance, in that so many people are so invested in her characters so long after they were written.

I agree with Deadringer about Elizabeth Eliot. In addition, she was beautiful, the eldest daughter of a baronet, and would have £10,000. She was also so arrogant that it wouldn't have occurred to her that nobody might want to marry her.

On the education point, I think that the education of any daughters would be left to Charlotte to organise, but if she had sons, Mr Collins would have taken more of an interest and I imagine that they would have been destined for the church, with Lady Catherine helping to find them livings.

What this thread demonstrates is Austen's brilliance, in that so many people are so invested in her characters so long after they were written.

This is so true

I've been thinking about this some more wondering: what is the modern day equivalent of Charlotte's decision?

Maybe staying with someone you don't love but can tolerate for the children/house/postcode?

But Elizabeth Elliot is presented very oddly, a being outside of the social norms, an example of Walter’s delusions about class, arrogant and without a clear sense of how she comes across to others.

Anne is obviously supposed to represent social norms much better than Elizabeth.

That's interesting, David Bamber was 41 when he played Mr Collins in the BBC version- 16 years older than in the book. It does change things.

I do wonder whether this was deliberate for a number of reasons; the rest of the cast were older than the characters so it fitted and the utter ridiculous nature of Mr Collins has slightly been lost through time, I think showing him as this comic older figure really highlights what Austen intended him to be rather than an exact match to the book.

I've been thinking about this some more wondering: what is the modern day equivalent of Charlotte's decision?

Following a career path which is unfulfilling and/or uninteresting, but which is safe and secure and guarantees a roof over your head? We all want to have jobs that make us really happy, but a lot of us settle for what we can get because our choices are limited.

I do admire Charlotte's quiet pragmatism.

In Georgian times women of child bearing age were pregnant all the time- so it doesn't tend to be mentioned in books because it was such an everyday thing.

Did the really posh women breastfeed or use wet nurses in those times?

Just thinking it might have been safer to be a bit less posh, breastfeed yourself, and hopefully spread out the DC/childbirths

If I was an 1700s/1800s woman, I would have been terrified of child birth (I imagine lots were!)