Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that owning a second home to use as a holiday home is extremely selfish?

840 replies

benadrylcucumberpatch · 17/07/2019 13:26

It would be a different story if there was a surplus of vacant properties . As it stands holiday home owners turn communities into ghost towns, inflate prices in desirable areas (many of which are rural with low wages) and displace people who would live in the property full time.

Aibu to think this is selfish and reprehensible? Why are such people not villified for taking more than they need in such an extreme way?

OP posts:
Teateaandmoretea · 20/07/2019 08:53

Teatea. And that’s your decision to make, just as it’s my decision what I do with my hard earned money. I choose to invest in property so that I can have a properly funded retirement and be able to assist our DC to get on the property ladder.

Quite, but I actually think that despite the legalities it's morally wrong to make money in the way you describe. That's my opinion, shelter is a basic human need and it's wrong to exploit that. But we all are entitled to different views.

usernamealreadytaken · 20/07/2019 08:59

Thank you @benadrylcucumberpatch - please share on and off MN to get as many signatures as possible x

Skinnychip · 20/07/2019 09:00

swingofthings
I know and completely get that in many cases the experience, training and responsibilty of a person higher in the pyramid gets rightly paid more . But there are other examples where the responsibility and mental load does not seem to equate to a higher level of pay. I saw a teacher on a train with a class of children and she asked them to sit down and said she had had to risk assess the trip and could potentially get sued if a child was injured. IMO that is a lot of responsibility and mental load (and you won't need to look far to find a thread about a teacher working out they are paid vitually minimum wage if you take into account the hours they put in) . A firefighter or policeman (even not at senior levels)put their own lives on the line and have to make life or death decisions but are not known for being on 6 figure salaries. You think the policemen at Borough market or the firemen at Grenfell tower were paid in direct proportion to their responsibility and mental load?
Im just saying its not always directly proprtional and its not always black and white.
Btw any ideas of the estate agents?

PinkSpring · 20/07/2019 09:01

When we moved into our new build, the house next door was used for the owners employees to stay during the week, that lasted six months and it then sat empty for a year. Then they decided to use it for a holiday home but only got business in the summer months (and charged up to £1k a week), the rest of the year it sat empty. It then for rented out for six months, then again sat empty. Returned to a holiday let for some of last summer then, it's been empty.

The owners apparently purchased it with cash, they have no use for it but don't want to sell it as they would rather it sits empty than sell. They are now renting out it "long term" to a very nice young couple (we saw the owners the other morning). I looked, they are charging £1,000 a month - the mortgage on these houses is like £500......

NinjaInFluffyPJs · 20/07/2019 09:22

Btw any ideas of the estate agents?

Firstly location pay difference is an obvious thing.

Secondly, yes. I believe that selling to people who are spending minimum of 400k on 2 bed flat and to people who are spending 60k on 2 bed terrace is different. One can get away with "I have no idea about the property", the more expensive one is expected to provide better service. Even in Blackburn you will find luxury estate agents making similar money to chelsea ones.
It's really like asking if it's fair that someone selling Ikea stuff makes less on commission than someone selling expensive handmade furniture🤷

I think the problem with "work hard" is that people just imagine the actual work at work. Work hard is a combination of things. Gain skills, gain knowledge, work, make decisions, often hard ones, which will make your life better, deal with problems efficiently, gain more current skills.
Work hard to get something isn't just working hard at work. It's working hard at life IYSWIM.

NinjaInFluffyPJs · 20/07/2019 09:23

No matter what though. I agree that teachers, nurses, police, firemen nad such really deserve better wages.

Kazzyhoward · 20/07/2019 09:30

No matter what though. I agree that teachers, nurses, police, firemen nad such really deserve better wages.

Desperately need to scrap national pay bargaining and vary the pay on a regional basis according to local conditions, such as average earnings and average cost of living. There are now massive variations between regions so nationally set wages are inappropriate.

Dorsetdays · 20/07/2019 10:07

And an estate agent selling a multi million pound property has a much smaller buyers market to try and sell to so of course it’s going to be harder.

Teatea. If it’s morally wrong for me to own a second property I assume it’s also morally wrong for anyone to have an empty spare room in their home as clearly that would also provide shelter for someone who needed it?

Nothingcomesforfree · 20/07/2019 10:33

Dorsetdays That’sa completely different argument though. Having a spare room is more akin to buying too much food and throwing it away at the end of the week.Not using the room is a waste rather than selfish.

Dorsetdays · 20/07/2019 10:42

It’s different because it suits your argument? The basic principle is the same, you’re ‘depriving’ someone of shelter and you have more than you need.

You can’t pick and choose when it applies and when it doesn’t 😂

Oliversmumsarmy · 20/07/2019 10:46

*I do believe someone on NMW can buy a property. It all depends on the amount of hours that they do.

Plenty of people struggle to make rent on min wage*

But how many hours are they working.

If only 40 then they might struggle depending where they are but if they are working evenings and weekends as well and living in a very cheap place even in London I don’t know how they would struggle

swingofthings · 20/07/2019 10:47

I don’t take any of this for granted, because actually at the end of the day, it’s not fair. I’ve just been lucky. I’m not better than anyone else
So you had privileges that allowed you to get where you are and therefore assume everyone who has a second home did too? I had none of the things you mentioned have been handed to you in a plate. No help from parents, financially or with helping with childcare, no job given to me, on the opposite, I had to reply for my own job where there were only 2 roles for 6 people.

But there are other examples where the responsibility and mental load does not seem to equate to a higher level of pay
If you read my post again, I do say 'in most csdes', they are of course exceptions, but even in your example, for one, a, qualified teacher, who is more likely to be in a situation of being solely in charge of class outside of the classroom, does get quite well paid if they work full time. Also, this event is occasional, not a daily event. I bet any tea her would find the stress overwhelming if they had to take a class out on day trips on their own e ety day, and then indeed, the pay would likely be higher.

Still as a rule, I think that carers, nurses, hcas, police officers, and a few more don't get pay enough for the responsibilities they are behold. This is the main reason so many nurses are leaving the profession.

ForalltheSaints · 20/07/2019 10:55

A second home for a short period of time whilst you decide if an area is for you, or for a year or two in preparation for retirement, fair enough. One on a long-term basis not even used every weekend is wrong in my view.

An example could be set by MPs not having a second home allowance.

benadrylcucumberpatch · 20/07/2019 10:58

If only 40 then they might struggle depending where they are but if they are working evenings and weekends as well and living in a very cheap place even in London I don’t know how they would struggle

I believe that in a country with as much wealth as the UK people shouldn't be having to work every waking hour just to rent accomadation. I think the rich poor divide is bad for society and destabilising.

OP posts:
Dorsetdays · 20/07/2019 11:02

Well, the rich/poor divide will only continue to grow if people aren’t interested in working more than 40 hours a week 🤷🏼‍♀️

CherryPavlova · 20/07/2019 11:03

Close friend whose a retired police officer (retired at 55 on very good pension) always earned more from his property portfolio than his salary as a very senior police officer. He made a huge amount doing overtime during miners strike which he used a similar his first deposit. Took in lodgers, got a second deposit and continued to invest. Children through top independent school, very nice large house in Hampstead and living off the rents from his eight other north London properties. He started with absolutely nothing.

Fireman friend (also retired at 53 on final salary pension) has a beautiful five bedroom house overlooking the watercress streams in a sought after Hampshire village. His daughters go to good local independent day school. They have an apartment in Chamonix because he skis and a holiday place in Polzeath. He built up deposit by working a second job in his early career. Studying for additional qualifications allowed him rapid career progression.
Even my daughters friend who is only 26 is a head of department in a secondary school on around £50 and is looking to move towards becoming a deputy head within two years.
It’s choices not the role that stops people in these jobs getting a decent living wage.

Oliversmumsarmy · 20/07/2019 11:03

Herocomplex

With out your initial work to put you in the position of being offered jobs then a lot of what followed wouldn’t have happened.

Also you recognised the opportunities when they presented themselves

There is thread after thread and post after post about people not being able to buy a place to live. What I am saying is you can buy somewhere and start working your way up. The chances of someone presenting you with your forever home is only going to happen if you either win the lottery or someone with money dies and leaves it all to you.
Chances of that happening are probably higher than the lottery.

If you want somewhere you have to look at what you can afford and buy that. Work on that place then sell and buy another then sell etc etc. These places don’t even have to be near where you live.

They are a means to an end.

Herocomplex · 20/07/2019 11:05

No swing I don’t assume anyone who owns anything has had it handed to them, and I’ve never said or insinuated that anywhere.
I know people who stun me with their tenacity and ability to recover from terrible setbacks and awful circumstances, things that would completely floor me. But up they get and carry on.
We’re all different, that’s exactly what I’m saying.

CherryPavlova · 20/07/2019 11:09

There is a rich poor divide but there’s also a prepared to put the effort and hours in to get where you want to be versus the owed what I want attitude. Hard work and long hours early on pays dividends.
I don’t mean a nurse working through their coffee break on a cardiac ward then going home throwing his shoes off and downing a beer because he’s so tired. I mean that nurse going home, having a shower to freshen up and then writing a masters essay because tomorrow he’s off and working bank shifts in an accident and emergency department to gain wider experience and enable him to save for a deposit.

IncandescentShadow · 20/07/2019 11:11

Dorsetdays t’s different because it suits your argument? The basic principle is the same, you’re ‘depriving’ someone of shelter and you have more than you need.

That's a very specific and personal ideological viewpoint. Its one that clearly isn't enshrined in the law of this country, because it is not illegal to own second homes. Even in communist Russia, a stuga in the countryside was often permitted and second holiday homes which are empty most of the year are the norm in Scandinavia. So it is therefore a personal value judgement that you are trying to apply. Its not up to individuals to make up rules and I believe morally repugnant to then judge them against this arbitrary definition of "selfishness". In this country, we already give up a high proportion of our earned income in tax, and the more you earn, the more tax you pay.

There are, as usual, some posts by people who would like to claim the moral high ground. Its a very easy thing to do - going on an internet site and posting about your own value choices and how "bad" people are. Maybe it makes you feel better, but its not particularly useful, as opposed to actually doing something, such as renovating a property which was previously uninhabitable.

I have personally been insulted and mocked numerous times by the OP and sworn at by her because I don't agree with her very strict viewpoint and because she wants to stifle intelligent debate on the subject. I don't even have a holiday home (although I do have a house that I do not live in which I have been trying to sell for 2 years (probably due to the restrictions on buy to let mortgages and excessive building of new homes which aren't selling in the particular area) and in which I have a lodger). For the life of me, I can't see how someone can claim the moral high ground, yet be so quick to insult people on scant information. Grudging hard working people a holiday and trying to guilt trip them must be one of the unbelievable things I've heard. Yes, the OP has a point if she does indeed live in an empty village which is full of empty holiday homes, but she hasn't provided evidence of this. What she has provided evidence of is a mean nature and a strange dislike of people deigning to enjoy themselves on holiday, without offering any solutions as to how people should actually holiday with all the restrictions she would like to see in place. Its a peculiarly non-constructive argument. We have seen tax changes in recent years which means that second home owners pay their share of council tax, even though their use of services is minimal, and there is now a punitive level of stamp duty payable on second home purchasers, which also catches out those moving for work reasons who can't sell their existing home.

OP - if you are going to respond to me directly, can you try and demonstrate a little bit better education than you have done thus far and refrain from insults and swearing?

The "shelter is a basic human need" argument is one that has become very fashionable amongst the left in recent years. There is good reason for this. Its one of those very emotive arguments that people surveyed in the street will often answer in a very predicable way, agreeing with the premise. It guilt trips people. It therefore makes an equally good stick to beat those who don't agree with your political ideology with. "You have more than you need" the argument goes, so therefore you should give me more of what you have to even things out. There is no end to this - so it doesn't matter how inefficient the argument is in practice, there will always be a justification for taking what someone else has, based on this thinking.

And if people don't agree with you, just insult them, even though they are a perfectly good contributor to society!

Wheres the real moral repugnance?

Oliversmumsarmy · 20/07/2019 11:11

I believe that in a country with as much wealth as the UK people shouldn't be having to work every waking hour just to rent accomadation. I think the rich poor divide is bad for society and destabilising

It doesn’t matter what you believe. I am sure that a lot of the richer people in society have worked at one stage or another more than a strict 40 hour week.

If you want to sit in a rented flat and moan about how unfair life is then what is going to change.

If you take on multiple jobs and work your arse off going from job to job and cutting your expenditure to the bone for a period of time you will be able to buy a place somewhere.

Herocomplex · 20/07/2019 11:14

Cherry yes I have similar friends, retired at 50 from police service, live a fantastic life, travel, property, hobbies. From the stories they tell I’m absolutely in favour of them being able to stop at 50, they’ve bloody earned it.
What they would say is they put in the hours in overtime to get started in property, every shift that came up they’d take. It would be interesting to see if that’s still the case for newer officers.

benadrylcucumberpatch · 20/07/2019 11:16

Well, the rich/poor divide will only continue to grow if people aren’t interested in working more than 40 hours a week 🤷🏼‍♀️

Or we could elect a government who will actually improve wage equaluty?

How many hours do you work? I'm guessing you do 60 hours a week on your feet in a physically tiring job like care work? You must be to speak with such certainty on the subject Hmm

OP posts:
CherryPavlova · 20/07/2019 11:24

@ benadrylcucumberpatch. Not now, but yes, for first ten years of our careers we studied, worked several jobs and did regular sixty hour weeks in very demanding, jobs with social purpose. Get off your high horse!

My husband and I still both work a fifty hour week minimum; his is more about sixty hours. Both public/voluntary sector but senior enough to have a chair nowadays.
Our children have developed our work ethic and unsurprisingly, have got on the property ladder in the south east in their early twenties.

benadrylcucumberpatch · 20/07/2019 11:26

The "shelter is a basic human need" argument is one that has become very fashionable amongst the left in recent years.

And on what basis do you disgree with the statement that shelter is a basic human need?

OP posts: