To be in two minds about the chicken pox vaccine

[trippingovertoysinthedark]

I’m really on the fence with this one.

On the one hand, I have two preschool children in full time childcare and a SE partner. Financially, we could be in trouble if we had to take time off work to look after them if/when they get chicken pox. Also, I don’t want them to be unwell.

However, on the other hand, them being unwell now might set them up for lifetime immunity and that would probably be ultimately better than the vaccine when it wanes - I’m also not a fan of vaccinating children when it isn’t needed, as vaccine damage can happen and yes tiny chance blah blah but why take that chance if you don’t have to? Although I haven’t read of any adverse reactions to the pox vaccine but then would I be likely to?

So I’m dithering here

If the NHS introduces it to the childhood schedule I would get them vaccinated tomorrow.

Why, when the reasons it isn’t on the schedule are well known:

• cost
• exposure to children with chicken pox boosts immunity against shingles (when people could just get a shingles vaccination)
• concerns about it reducing the uptake of MMR even further due to anti-vax rhetoric

Those are the reasons it’s not on the childhood schedule.

I'm in the odd case of my boys getting the CP vaccine on the NHS. I am immuno compromised and due to my crackers immune system haven't developed immunity to CP (I've had it several times - sometimes mildly, sometimes badly). Now I'm immunosupressed this means CP is very dangerous to me (I would be hospitalised with it) so both my boys are vaccinated as they are the most likely source of contact with it.
We researched the vaccine a lot because when my eldest had it, it was very rare to get it in this country although it had been on the schedule in other countries for a bit. My GP knew very little about it as the NHS only supply it in a limited set of circumstances so we researched it together.
By the time my youngest had it 8yrs later there was a lot more research & studies into the long term effects of the vaccine and its effects on long term immunity / shingles.
A lot of the concerns of the vaccine had been proved to be unfounded or the early computer models of effects disproved. I was much happier to give it to my now 3yo after reading the later set of scientific papers on the subject (they mostly come out of the US as it's been on the schedule there for over 20yrs and there is a large population to study so meaningful results are available)
The serious risks of the disease are known, although rare. The risks of the vaccine are even rarer and often hypothetical- most cases where vaccine injury is stated cannot categorically state it was the vaccine, but due to timings the link is understandably jumped to. So for me as well as my personal risk of the disease, the risk balance is tipped in the vaccines favour for my kids.

The US CDC (among others) find no evidence of it “wearing off” when two doses are given (as is routine). So that shouldn’t be a consideration either.

You put ‘wearing off’ in scare quotes like you think the idea is inherently ridiculous. That’s not how it works. Efficacy of many vaccines does fade over time - mumps, pertussis. Efficacy of others (measles) seems to hold firmer. So it’s not a case of “we have no reason to think it wears off”, it’s a case of “we don’t know how long its immunity lasts.”

The varicella vaccine hasn’t yet been around for long enough to know if the two-dose approach provides longer-term immunity. To complicate things, some of the evidence we have is from Japan where the disease was still active - this by itself can boost immunity (your immune system seems to benefit from being exposed to varicella occasionally, it’s why shingles rates stay lower when exposed to chickenpox routinely).

If you think that not getting a vaccine makes someone an antivaxxer, can I assume your children have all been vaccinated against TB? Smallpox? Cholera? Do you think the NHS not having those on the standard vaccine schedule means the NHS is secretly full of antivaxxers?

If you think that not getting a vaccine makes someone an antivaxxer, can I assume your children have all been vaccinated against TB? Smallpox? Cholera? Do you think the NHS not having those on the standard vaccine schedule means the NHS is secretly full of antivaxxers?

That is a strawman of Wicker Man proportions...

I wouldn't. I'm perfectly happy to trust the NHS guidance when it comes to decisions regarding vaccinations for my children.

Parents unilaterally deciding they know better than medical professionals is largely what has got us into the state we're in with anti-vaxx nonsense.

Those are the reasons it’s not on the childhood schedule.

Adding in conspiracy mongering over MMR uptake and claiming that’s a ‘well known’ reason for chickenpox not to be on the schedule doesn’t help. The reasons it’s not on the NHS schedule are explained plain and clear by the NHS: www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/why-are-children-in-the-uk-not-vaccinated-against-chickenpox/

You’ve also skipped most of my post above the bit you quoted. The reason that it being on the NHS schedule would make me pay for private vaccination tomorrow is not because id know it was ‘safe’ then, it’s that putting it on the NHS schedule would drastically reduce the chance of exposure to it for vaccinated children when older, so the longevity of the vaccination isn’t as much of a factor.

That is a strawman of Wicker Man proportions...

Why? These are all vaccines which are available, but not on the NHS. (Okay, I’ll grant you that you can’t just pop down to your local travel clinic for smallpox any more, but others are easy and cheap to get privately.)

I got the MenB vaccine privately for my eldest before it was on the NHS schedule. I think this was the right decision. I don’t think people who didn’t are all secret antivaxxers, though.

Thank you 53rd

It’s really reassuring when you get plain common sense and the thread feels as if it is in safe hands.

Pcohle, why do you think the NHS knows better than every other government that does vaccinated against chickenpox ie US, Australia , Germany,Italy , Canada etc.

I don't know, I'm not an epidemiologist.

But I assume different rates of chickenpox and shingles infection in the general population, as well as countries taking a different view on the uptake and efficacy of the vaccine leading to a different cost benefit analysis at the population wide level.

The US never gave mass BCG vaccinations, that doesn't mean they or the UK were necessarily wrong - just taking different approaches.

Is that a serious question?

Because there aren’t outbreaks of cholera, smallpox and TB in U.K. schools and nurseries every year, obviously.

Just thinking the same thing swissmilk
No idea why some people post. Pages and pages of people disagreeing then they jump onto the lone voice that is sympathetic and use this as reassurance that they are in fact right. No amount of logical argument will get through to the OP.

Ok swiss

ccc what you seem unable to comprehend is that shouting abuse at someone or claiming they said something they didn’t aren’t a) logical arguments or b) particularly reassuring.

I'll be getting it for my DD if we make it to one without her getting it. There have already been several outbreaks at baby classes we go to so I'm just hoping we can stay away from it for another 7 months!

Adding in conspiracy mongering over MMR uptake and claiming that’s a ‘well known’ reason for chickenpox not to be on the schedule doesn’t help.

It’s absolutely not conspiracy mongering - quite the ironic angle to take given the subject matter. MMR uptake rates are still falling, unbelievably. There are absolutely concerns in the NHS about adding varicella to the MMR for this reason.

Wow, that’s a new one. Someone following NHS advice is being called offensive names.

Because there aren’t outbreaks of cholera, smallpox and TB in U.K. schools and nurseries every year, obviously.

But there are outbreaks of TB in the U.K. And where it exists, it is almost always much worse than chicken pox. TB is never a mild childhood illness for anybody.

You (presumably) decided not to vaccinate against TB because even though the disease is awful, the chances of getting it are low. Other people decide not to vaccinate against chickenpox because even though it is common, the chances of having any serious effects are low. People weigh costs and benefits differently when it comes to extra vaccinations beyond the ones on the childhood schedule.

Again, I paid for the MenB vaccine even though MenB is vanishingly rare. If you didn’t, then you took a risk I was not prepared to take, but i can still acknowledge the risk itself is very small and you’re not an antivaxxer for taking it.

I don’t think anyone’s WRONG for paying for the chickenpox vaccine. I would myself if circumstances around it or NHS plans were different. But it is ridiculous to say, “I got this vaccines that wasn’t on the schedule but not this other one, and you got this other one but not the one I got, therefore you are a ridiculous antivaxxer and I am a sensible person who now gets to loudly ridicule you.”

It’s absolutely not conspiracy mongering - quite the ironic angle to take given the subject matter

“The NHS won’t tell you this but here’s the secret reason behind what they’re actually saying re vaccines” is not conspiracy mongering? Really?

There are pock marked children walking around - you just aren't paying attention. I have chicken pox scars. The vaccine didn't exist when I was a kid. I wish it had. I was three, and mostly okay. But my 30-something year old father was at death's door when he caught it from me. If I had been vaccinated, I wouldn't have caught it and passed it onto him. Herd immunity is a thing. You are being woefully naive, especially since you are primarily thinking of the cost of staying off work.

NHS advice does not say don't get your child vaccinated. It isn't on the programme because of cost issues. I also paid for my dd to have the meningitis vaccine because she just missed out on the NHS intro of the vaccine. People pay privately for alot of beneficial things not available on the NHS. To say thats not following NHS advice is ludicrous.

Oh and there was a TB outbreak at my primary school in the early 2000s. Got vaccinated. Vaccine scar looks awful but at least I didn't die from bloody tuberculosis.

Herd immunity is a thing

Not for vaccines that aren't on the vaccination schedule it isn't. It might be popular on naice middle class MN but at £140 the idea that vaccinating your child against chickenpox is contributing to herd immunity in the UK is laughable.

My son contracted chicken pox at 6 months old.. people play it down tell you it's just a mild illness.. it can so quickly and easily turn nasty.. I was so concerned about my boy.. my GP, mum, husband and 111 all said he just has it bad and it's nothing to worry about.. I wasn't happy.. took him to a&e who immediately admitted him and got him on fluids and antibiotics, his spots were infected and he was a risk of sepis.. I didn't even know about the vaccine until after.. it is rare to have complications but it happens.. if I have any more children I'd pay the earth to have the vaccinated after seeing my boy so poorly in hospital.

That’s not what I said. I work for my county’s CCG - this isn’t a “secret reason” in the slightest. It features in just about every discussion of why the NHS don’t add it to the schedule

www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2014/may/15/real-reason-british-public-chickenpox-vaccine-shingles

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8557236.stm

I’d also recommend reading this
adc.bmj.com/content/101/1/2

Particularly worth noting is that most childhood hospitalisations for varicella complications are in previously healthy children