To be in two minds about the chicken pox vaccine

[trippingovertoysinthedark]

I’m really on the fence with this one.

On the one hand, I have two preschool children in full time childcare and a SE partner. Financially, we could be in trouble if we had to take time off work to look after them if/when they get chicken pox. Also, I don’t want them to be unwell.

However, on the other hand, them being unwell now might set them up for lifetime immunity and that would probably be ultimately better than the vaccine when it wanes - I’m also not a fan of vaccinating children when it isn’t needed, as vaccine damage can happen and yes tiny chance blah blah but why take that chance if you don’t have to? Although I haven’t read of any adverse reactions to the pox vaccine but then would I be likely to?

So I’m dithering here

I’m a doctor. I vaccinated my kids against chicken pox.

Fucking hell. I had CP when I was 11. It was agonising. My dad ended up going to the hospital in the wee small hours to pick me up a dose of antihistamines "that would kill a race horse" in his words.

Seriously it was hell. I would NEVER put my child through that if there was an alternative.

Oh BTW did I mention the hallucinations? I thought there were tentacles coming through the walls. (TBF it was the early 80s and our wallpaper was horrific.)

But seriously, don't subject your child to this.

Runmy - for the most part, it is.

Obviously some cases won’t be but that’s the same for vaccines isn’t it: we just don’t know!

OP, one of the potential complications of CP is encephalitis, and as someone who has survived that I would just like to let you know how it still affects me all these years later.

The disease wiped out years of my memory. Those memories will never come back. Not only that but it's left my long term memory shot to pieces - short term I'm fine, but long term it's awful.

Probably by far the biggest thing it's left me with is epilepsy. I take a cocktail of four drugs a day to control it. Tried to take fewer, but then it's not controlled - guidelines don't recommend taking more than two, as any more increases the risk of SUDEP (sudden unexplained death from epilepsy). What choice is there though.

And I'm one of the lucky ones. Other encephalitis survivors I'm in touch with have much more severe long term effects, and we're the ones that survived - the doctors told my parents to prepare for the worst, and when I pulled through thought I'd never lead a normal life.

The majority of the others I know got it from having measles or CP - those harmless childhood diseases. They're really not so harmless.

DD1 was almost 9 before she caught CP. The spots were everywhere. She was very ill and still has pox scars on her body. She was off school for 2 weeks because of the amount of scabs and her total exhaustion after being so ill. DD2 came down with them on the day DD1 went back to school. She was 4, and was superglued to me. I even had her on my lap whilst I was on the toilet (XH was abroad working).

A very good friend of mine caught CP at the end of her first year in university and was 10 days in intensive care and then had to endure a couple of abdominal operations that summer because one of the spots abscessed. She had to repeat her first year. If you can get your child vaccinated, then please do so.

I got my dd vaccinated and would recommend it. However, as far as I understand, it does NOT protect against shingles, although risk is lower than if you had chicken pox.

It's not 100% efficacy against shingles but the risk of getting shingles in those vaccinated is very very low and normally only occurs in the immuno suppressed

I have knowns two children who have been hospitalised because of CP, but my own children all had mild cases, didn't itch and I wasn't working so there was no stress about needing time off. For me not vaccinating was the right decision, but if I worked and had more than once child the prospect of potentially needing to take several weeks off work would be the deciding factor in giving them the vaccination.

We didn’t vaccinate against it and our children both had it when they were around 2 and 5. A few itchy days but they were pretty much playing as normal. I remember it being the same for my sister and me and our cousins. Tbh I don’t know a single person who has had complications from chickenpox in real life - aside from a couple of infected spots that cleared up with cream. If you look at official figures, complications in childhood are very very rare. It can be much worse in adulthood so better to get it out of the way when they’re young imo rather than potentially pushing it into adulthood - vaccines aren’t 100% effective and protection can wane. (You’ll get loads of people saying this isn’t true for the CP vaccine but yes, some people who have been vaccinated against it will still catch it and no, it won’t necessarily be milder.)

I understand your point about having to take time off work so it’s obviously up to you from a convenience/financial point of view.

vaccines aren’t 100% effective and protection can wane. (You’ll get loads of people saying this isn’t true for the CP vaccine but yes, some people who have been vaccinated against it will still catch it and no, it won’t necessarily be milder.)

No data to say it wanes at all. Also people that have caught CP can get it again.

It is oversimplifying the issue to say “if you aren’t getting your children a vaccine which is not on the NHS schedule, then you must be an antivaxxer.” There are lots of vaccines not on the NHS schedule, you don’t have to prove your pro-vaccination credentials by collecting all of them.

The main thing that puts me off the chickenpox vaccine is not yet having strong enough evidence on its duration, plus living in a country where chickenpox is endemic, plus chickenpox severity being worse in adults. Yes we ‘don’t have evidence it wears off’ as such, but immunity for many vaccines starts to fade over a few decades, it’s not specific to chickenpox vaccines. (Immunity got infection-acquired diseases can wear off too, but for chickenpox it typically doesn’t.)

If I vaccinate my 1-year-old and the immunity lasts 20 years, then my child would be a 21-year-old without chickenpox immunity. Chances are very high they’d be exposed to it, unless the NHS puts the vaccine on the childhood schedule, and chickenpox is worse in adults than young children. They could get a booster, but 18-21-year-olds are not great at preventative healthcare, especially if they have to pay for it.

If the NHS introduces it to the childhood schedule I would get them vaccinated tomorrow.

Thanks for your measured post 53rd and to other similar ones.

I’m not an anti vaxxer but nor am I going to give them vaccines for diseases if that could prove counterproductive.

Beanery, originally only a single dose was recommended for life long protection and immunity was found to wane. In 2006 it was recommend that a second dose be administered. It’s a bit early to say that two doses provide lifelong protection.

Tbh I don’t know a single person who has had complications from chickenpox in real life
Just because you dont know anyone doesnt mean that they dont happen.
I personally know a child who had a stroke at 6 left paralyzed down one side, left with learning difficulties. He was in ds class at the time
I personally know an immunesuppressed child with leukhemia who had to be rushed to GOSH every time she was in contact with CP (my son was one of those) to have a specially vaccination, cant remember what it is called
Numerous adults who never caught it as a child who ended up suffering badly, with internal spots in lungs, vagina etc. There has never been a guarantee you get it as a child.
A healthy parent of a child at my ds nursery died from CP

Then we have shingles , its not that rare and a painful unpleasant disease and can only get it if you have CP. Having the CP vaccination does reduce the risk of shingles in later life. I had shingles in my 20s and still had the post herpatic neuralgia for a good 15 years afterwards every month at PMT. Also took 2 years for the lumps in my lymphoid to go down afterwards.

Everyones experience of CP is different but if my dc hadnt had it when they did i would have got them vaccinated.

It’s a bit early to say that two doses provide lifelong protection.

It's also a bit early to say it doesn't.

We simply dont have the data yet to say whether two doses of the vaccine is more, less or comparable to the disease itself in effectiveness. Lifelong immunity from having the disease certainly isnt a given, we know that, and it's too early to say for the vaccine. You're taking a punt either way, on that score.

My 3 have recently all had it, ages 2, 5, and 6. 6 year old had it the worst he was absolutely covered head to toe. Still very marked over a month on, as is the 2 year old, however 5 year old has healed lovely. 6 year old was very poorly, hardly moved or ate for a week, he had them even in his throat. If I had known I would have vaccinated them all. It really is like some awful medieval disease!

I would, but mr DC had horrid CP, not the 'mild' infection I thought I'd had as a child. The vaccine wasnt available at the time for mine, so in my ignorance of how severe it can be, would possibly have been in your dilemma OP.
However, having experienced terrible reactions from my DC, would recommend others have it.
Yes, yours could just get a mild case, but equally they may not.
Let's face it, why go to the bother of creating a vaccine otherwise? Someone did the research on the benefits ?

I recognise that bruffin but my point is that in the majority of cases it isn’t a fatal or serious disease.

And of course in the majority of cases

Sorry, pressed post!

In the majority of cases vaccine damage doesn’t happen either.

“Just because you dont know anyone doesnt mean that they dont happen. ”

I didn’t say that it doesn’t happen, I just gave my experience which, according to the official figures, is the case for the vast majority of people. Sometimes on MN you get an influx of people talking about their negative experiences which can skew perceptions.

Yes, beanery, that’s why I said potentially pushing it into adulthood. Studies looking at the effectiveness of two doses have stated that they need data from people 10-20 years post vaccines.

THeres no valid reason against getting the vaccine. The risks from vaccines are tiny in comparison to the risk of serious complications or death from chicken pox. Why would you risk that for your child?

The US CDC (among others) find no evidence of it “wearing off” when two doses are given (as is routine). So that shouldn’t be a consideration either.

There’s no reason based in science to not get it. So I would do so or just own that you are an anti-vaxxer and stop being so coy about it.

I wish my DD1 had been vaccinated she was quite ill and the spots were unreal. She has scarring and although she wasn’t hospitalised it took her weeks to get over it (I was on maternity leave luckily with DD2!) and she couldn’t even wee without screaming. DD2 wasn’t very affected and had 10 spots
Both my mum and sister had CP as adults and were also very ill

I actually have no immunity despite being exposed and I’ve had 2 vaccines 🤷🏻‍♀️ But yes I would give it!

Can I also give a warning for your DC if they grow up and want to do Camp America.
I didnt take DD (14 mos at them time to the GP because she caught it from DS the week before. He had been diagnosed by GP. She was also totally covered in spots. I think she also went on to have a mild dose of shingles at about 6 or 7. She also had a scar by her mouth.

Last year she applied for CA. They wanted proof of vaccination and health report from GP. A week before she went they asked for proof of CP. I was ringing round trying to get her titres tested or vaccine within a few days on a bank holiday weekend

Also a pp posted an article from the BMJ stating about 5 children (so not including adults) died in the U.K. in the year studied from chicken pox. So just because you don’t know any personally doesn’t mean anything