To be in two minds about the chicken pox vaccine

[trippingovertoysinthedark]

I’m really on the fence with this one.

On the one hand, I have two preschool children in full time childcare and a SE partner. Financially, we could be in trouble if we had to take time off work to look after them if/when they get chicken pox. Also, I don’t want them to be unwell.

However, on the other hand, them being unwell now might set them up for lifetime immunity and that would probably be ultimately better than the vaccine when it wanes - I’m also not a fan of vaccinating children when it isn’t needed, as vaccine damage can happen and yes tiny chance blah blah but why take that chance if you don’t have to? Although I haven’t read of any adverse reactions to the pox vaccine but then would I be likely to?

So I’m dithering here

When dm was hospitalised for a month with cp (think rigor without the mortis and fighting hard to survive), me not being able to visit her for all that time would have killed her, df and me. However, toddler dd had been vaccinated so hospital allowed both her and I to visit.

Not a life episode I had ever planned but had managed to be prepared for.

Chicken pox is usually mild, yes. Complications don't need to be common though to be more common than a reaction to the vaccine. The problem with chicken pox (and measles) is not that they are generaly serious, but that they are extremely contagious - 90% roughly non-immune transfer rate. When 90% of a population get a disease even if less than 1% suffer serious complucations this amounts to a lot of people.

Sorry, US figures - but:

In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got varicella, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized, and 100 to 150 died each year.

So that's about 0.25% or one in 400 hospitalised from chicken pox. Yes it is rare, but vaccine reactions are more in the 1:250,000 region than 1:400.

And the latent risk of shingles is much higher - about 1 in 4 if you've had chicken pox. 1:1,000 cases of shingles results in death (which is mainly because it is usually concentrated in the elderly). But shingles isn't pleasant to start out with. You cannot catch shingles, and you won't develop it if you have not had chicken pox.

I'm not especially scared of chicken pox and I wouldn't be frightened if my children had it, but on balance the risk of the vaccine is lower. And you get to avoid the week of illness/quarantine.

"Chicken pox isn't like an inconvenient bug which inevitably pass. It is fucking horrendous."

What planet are you living on? I don't know anyone who had serious side effects from chicken pox. Vaccination wasn't available for me or for my children so most people I know (and their children) had the infection, unless they had natural immunity. It's not on the UK vaccination schedule either - surely that suggests it's low priority/benefit. We should be concentrating on improving vaccination rates for MMR etc.

You seem to be more bothered about time off work than anything else!
Getting DD the chickenpox vaccine was one of the best things I've done. The Dr said they now believe that the immunity is lifelong. If, in the next 20 years, it is proven that it isn't, the worst thing that can happen is that she needs a booster. The vaccination means she is also protected from getting shingles.
Just so you know, getting chickenpox as a child doesn't give you lifelong immunity. Some people do get it multiple times.
I don't know why anyone would risk their children getting a disease that is so uncomfortable for them, commonly causes scarring and had the potential for awful complications, even death

Probably because most posts are urging me to GET it S1 - if everyone was urging me not to I’d be arguing the other way! I really am torn and very anxious about this.

Well yes, ccc - because if we can’t pay the mortgage then that’s going to have serious implications, isn’t it?

Sorry, this thread is moving fast so keep cross posting. I am not in doubt that vaccination carries risks, but generally this is a very small risk and when compared directly to the risk of complications from disease it does not add up, and the risk of complications from most diseases is pretty small too - but still higher than the risk from a vaccination, unless there are particular risk factors there, which is something you'd need to discuss with a doctor.

Additionally, I have to take my daughter to hospital this morning as we think she may have broken her wrist during last night’s episode of myoclonus, which she has as a complication of CP. I have had to give up my office job as her care needs are now massively more than they were. It’s ruined our lives at the moment.

It's not on the UK vaccination schedule either - surely that suggests it's low priority/benefit.

Clearly you don’t know why the NHS has decided not to add varicella to the MMR. Maybe do a little research. It’s not because it’s low priority / benefit - if that were the case, why would other countries routinely vaccinate against it?

And the planet I’m living on is the one where both of my twins have just had chicken pox, both had infections, one extremely nasty which stopped him from standing, walking or even sitting upright, both had very scary symptoms including fevers of 40.5 - 40.9, and between them they had three weeks off nursery in a month.

Well yes, ccc - because if we can’t pay the mortgage then that’s going to have serious implications, isn’t it?

What about your children having possible complications from chickenpox. You don't think that is a serious implication? God this is a weird thread.

And are you saying that if your child has any sort of illness at all you will be out on the street? Because there is more than chickenpox out there unfortunately

Tbf my experience tallies with Argy - I honestly do not know of even one person, even in that ‘my friends cousins next door neighbours niece’ way, who has had anything other than a rash and a fever and itching. It’s not very nice but I also don’t think in the majority of cases it is horrendous.

Nonetheless it WOULD mean inconvenience. My question is whether I can justify a tiny risk (vaccine damage) for inconvenience.

No, ccc

What I am saying is that two lots of chicken pox, if they don’t run concurrently, could mean 2/3 weeks off work. This could have implications both financially and in terms of good will.

You are correct, there’s more than CP out there. So say they get CP and then a cold and then a tummy upset ... get me?

Honestly, if you're financially in a position where a couple of weeks not working would mean you struggle to pay for housing at that point, that might be the tipper for me if I were otherwise on the fence. Children being securely housed is a benefit to them too.

In all probability these are the two most likely scenarios.

1. you vaccinate, you have to lob about £120 for each injection there are 2, and you have to do this for each child. One vaccination is not enough they need a booster. Your children gain immunity. An outbreak hits nursery and then school, and your children don’t get ill.

2. your child gets chickenpox, after a few days they are incredibly sore they have spots absolutely everywhere you run all sorts over their skin to soothe it, you do oat baths etc. You have to take time off work for two weeks at least. If your child is at school they miss two weeks of school. You can’t go anywhere because your child could endanger immunosuppressed people. Then after your child recover and the other one gets sick and you repeat the process.

Entirely up to you which way you go, considering millions of children globally have this injection routinely it is deemed safe. Of course reactions happen I had one to whooping cough vaccine as a child. But probability is they won’t.

its up to you what you do. There are an awful lot of people I know at the school gates who like to play the chickenpox martyrs. Almost revel in when their kids get their turn. Some do say they wish they’d vaccinated against it, because even if the child had a mild dose it’s not very nice and they do suffer. Yes it’s true the vaccine may not take either, but chances are any chickenpox virus they get will be very mild, I.e. one or two spots.

I’m not going to tell you what to do, but if you’re prepared to put your child through the uk vaccination programme I don’t really get why you wouldn’t vaccinate against chickenpox because surely the arguments you have against vaccinating would be the same.

Btw I think the nhs don’t offer it because they fear shingles outbreaks in the popular the virus stops circulating in the wild. But I believe they are looking at this again.

Having been at school with someone who died of complications from chicken pox (they did not have underlying health issues as far as I am aware) I would vaccinate if possible.

I was not aware of the shingles benefit of vaccination but if it prevents that too it would be another reason to do it. My DM has spent years taking gabapentin as shingles left her with abnormally sensitive skin.

I'm just going to post my experience OP, I'm not a medical expert. We've been umming and ahhing about the vaccine too but in the end our DC got CP so the decision was taken out of our hands.

4yo DS1 got CP 6 months ago and he had a mild fever for 2-3 days, a few itchy spots for about a week but nothing too bad really. Then 2yo DS2 got it exactly 2 weeks later, and had fever as well, but spots markedly worse. He suffered a bit, but survived.

It wasn't too bad an experience, and just another aspect of childhood IMO. Luckily we both work part time and are both part time SAHP so no time off work needed.

Thanks anti - I am umming and ahhing a LOT!

I don't see that people are urging you to get it. More that on balance they consider it worth it. Which is generally what most people find if they look into it. The strong likelihood is that if your children don't get it, they will be fine, whether they catch chicken pox or not - just look at any thread where a poster's child gets chicken pox and see what advice they get, it is not all terror and doom, it is mostly reassurance and suggestions on various lotions and activities to occupy the week at home.

On balance though, two posters on the whole of mumsnet who have experienced a reaction they believe to be caused by a vaccine - not even necessarily this specific vaccine (and I am not suggesting that they are lying or mistaken either) vs this thread of people who have experienced complications from chicken pox (or not even complications, but found it difficult/unpleasant) would suggest that complications from chicken pox, even mild or temporary complications, are much more common than complications from the vaccine.

Shingles is vile. If a vaccine in childhood can prevent shingles in adulthood I'd go for it

It's your posts that deserve an eye roll. You don't seem to be able to think logically. In fact this just seems to be an anti vax thread. What risk of damage do you think your children have from the vaccine? Have you any evidence of any child having permanent damage from the chickenpox vaccine?

Of course it isn’t an anti vax thread it’s a thread where I am considering what the best thing for my children might be and that takes into account our personal circumstances which include our finances!

If you get chicken pox, regardless of the severity, you can get shingles later in life (it's reactivation of the chickenpox virus that never leaves the body). If you get immunised and don't contract chicken pox, you won't get shingles. I can't see why it's a difficult decision.

It's really difficult as all the gps I've spoken to and a consultant pead and a consultant dermatologist haven't given the vaccine bar one couple I know of who I haven't been able to speak to about it yet.

The reasoning given to me was that it was better to have the actual illness in terms of immunity plus for women in terms of pregnancy later on and frequent mild exposure in the community is supposed to help top up your own immunity. The pead bf her children and said one had it mildly 3 times while she was feeding him.

I can see that for the immune compromised it's a massive issue. And I've seen online that it can be horrendous. It was horrendous for my adult father; fine for us as siblings. Locally I've not heard of any bad cases.

I was told the other day by a Gp one of the many reasons the nhs didn't bring it in was that it was around the time of the Andrew Wakefield crap and they were worried that an additional vaccine at that time might increase the anti vax reactions.

We have dithered a lot over it. Friends in other countries have been very that it's not offered here.

FWIW we loved to Germany when my eldest was just 5 and had never had chicken pox. His baby brother was born here and will get the MMRV as part of his standard vaccinations. MIL can't remember whether DH ever had chicken pox. DS1's doctor strongly recommends that we get DS1 vaccinated, because now at 10 if he did get chicken pox, it would be likely to be quite unpleasant for him in comparison to the case most children have as toddlers. Since we visit the UK fairly often and as his brother starts to interact with other toddlers, it's fairly likely we'll come into contact with it I'm inclined to agree, to protect him as well as my DH. But I am also dragging my heels on booking it, and partly because I know he will be very upset with me for "forcing" him to have an injection that if we had stayed in the UK he almost definitely wouldn't have had!

I can remember having chicken pox as a child and feeling very ill, it's just a fleeting memory of nausea and weakness, but it's there, which is surprising as I was under three at the time.